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Author Topic:   Evolution is not Abiogenesis
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 51 of 251 (653668)
02-23-2012 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by dwise1
02-23-2012 11:24 AM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
buz writes:
I have never ever alleged that abiogenesis is evolution. My position is emphatically that it MUST happen before evolution can begin. The beginning of life by whatever means is the biopoesis. Once this biopoesis happens evolution can allegedly begin.
The thing is that what Buz just wrote to "clarify" his position is precisely what we had all seen him state before that that is precisely what we were all asking him about
I think this is deifnitely a "better" or "clearer" explanation than he gave before.
Now, I'm not sure if this is what Buz means or not, but reading it simply as a sentience, it seems to be correct. It sounds like it is saying that life has to start, somehow, before evolution can start. This is correct. And if life is to start it must have come from non-life, otherwise, it is not the start of life.
Perhaps I'm being too generous here with Buz, and knowing his posting history, it is a very large possibility, but for the moment, his sentence appears to be correct.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by dwise1, posted 02-23-2012 11:24 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by dwise1, posted 02-23-2012 3:25 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 02-23-2012 3:54 PM Perdition has replied
 Message 64 by anglagard, posted 02-23-2012 9:10 PM Perdition has seen this message but not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 55 of 251 (653691)
02-23-2012 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by dwise1
02-23-2012 3:25 PM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
Buz' position, which is a standard creationist position, is that evolution depends on one and only one scenario for how life started: abiogenesis, for which he now substitutes the synonym "biopoesis" and which he had originally referred to as "primordial soup". In his position, if life did not arise through natural processes (vital part of the definition of biopoesis/abiogenesis), then evolution does not exist.
That is certainly how I originally understood his argument, and it seems likely that that is indeed still what he means. But another possibility is that he just doesn't understand exactly what he's saying. If he understands the word abiogenesis, and biopoesis, to merely mean "life from non-life" as it is generally stated to mean, then his sentence, taken out of context*, is correct.
*Since his statement was stated, through another poster, without anything else explaining it, the only context available is our prior understanding of Buz's position. But I certainly get a sense of Buz using words he doesn't completely understand to mean something he's not exactly saying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by dwise1, posted 02-23-2012 3:25 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by dwise1, posted 02-24-2012 2:27 AM Perdition has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


(2)
Message 57 of 251 (653696)
02-23-2012 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by PaulK
02-23-2012 3:54 PM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
I would say that Buz's explanation is better, if and only if he means to include divine creation as abiogenesis.
Yeah, that would be correct.
Either way it seems that he has nothing worth saying. If he did mean that, then he is making a trivial point very, very badly. If he didn't then he is simply reiterating his position and there is no advance at all.
Also correct. Though, if he does mean to include divine intervention in abiogenesis, then I think that's a pretty significant advance for him. It might be a trivial point, made badly, but it's a trivial point he didn't seem to be able to make before.
Given that he brags about his hopelessly bad performance in the original thread how can we expect him to actually do better given a second attempt ?
I'm staying out of the "Buz should be able to post in Science fora" debate. That's something that should be left up to him and Percy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by PaulK, posted 02-23-2012 3:54 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3265 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 73 of 251 (653808)
02-24-2012 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by dwise1
02-24-2012 2:27 AM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
However, neither abiogenesis nor its, as far as anyone can tell, identical synonym, biopoesis, means merely "life from non-life." A key component of both (ie, the one) is "through natural processes."
Are you sure Buz understands this? He seems to think that abiogenesis and primordial soup and cosmic ooze are the same things. The only way this makes sense, is if they are all placeholders for "life from non-life."
Now, I'm perhaps over thinking this in assuming his position makes sense. But, if you ignore the word abiogenesis, and substitute in "life from non-life" then his statement is true and makes sense. Again, maybe that's not what he means, but that's how I read it.
I think that a very large part of the question is that Buz, Chuck, Portillo, and other creationists apply an entirely different definition to "evolution" than we normals do. For us, evolution is biological evolution only, the natural consequences of life doing what life naturally does. But for them, "evolution" is something entirely different, a complete atheistic worldview that demands the inclusion of abiogenesis -- the standard meaning, not your redefinitions. A large part of my position is that, if they are indeed redefining the terminology out from under us, they must at least inform us of just exactly what their definitions are. But then, that would work against their standing operating procedures of trying to generate confusion.
This is probably true, however, if they are using words incorrectly due to their own confusion, then they may not be aware that they are redefining terms. The suspiscious thing, and where I believe you are probably right, is that even after it is explained to them what the words mean, they continue to use them incorrectly. This could indicate continued confusion, as in they didn't understand the explanation given to them, or it is an act of deception.
For some reason, I tend to see Buz as just extremely confused, not purposefully deceitful. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm giving him too much credit

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by dwise1, posted 02-24-2012 2:27 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
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