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Author Topic:   Evolution is not Abiogenesis
Tangle
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Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 1 of 251 (653545)
02-22-2012 11:38 AM


There have been at least 3 fora in the last month where it has been claimed that evolution isn't true because it doesn't incorporate how life started.
I thought it might be useful to start a thread on how scientists explain the difference between the Theory of Evolution, the various ideas about how life started here on earth and why religious believers find it so hard to grasp what scientists think is a simple and obvious point.
That point being that the ToE starts with life whilst abiogenesis is how life starts.
Consequently, the ToE is agnostic to the cause of life and works independently of that cause.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 02-23-2012 7:36 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 4 of 251 (653551)
02-22-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
02-22-2012 12:53 PM


Re: Analogies
Taq writes:
The theory of evolution no more depends on the ultimate origin of life than our understanding of chemical interactions depends on the ultimate origin of matter.
I suppose we'd better get this one on the table from the start because it's a deal breaker.
Those that say that evolution is not true because it doesn't incorporate how life started MUST give a credible answer to this question
How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here by any of the different ways we can think of? Including:
1. God did it
2. A meteor brought it
3. Aliens planted it
4. Alphabet primordial soup cooked it up
5. any other idea
(It will be necessary for the creationist to put aside their belief that evolution isn't true and treat this as a puzzle in logic and reason.)
Edited by Tangle, : Improvement suggested by RAZD

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by RAZD, posted 02-22-2012 6:27 PM Tangle has not replied
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 Message 109 by marc9000, posted 02-26-2012 8:59 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 20 of 251 (653601)
02-23-2012 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Portillo
02-23-2012 2:34 AM


Portilo writes:
Does that mean that an intelligent agent is a valid alternative theory for the origin of life?
Logically, they can't be totally ruled out. (Although the alien hypothesis just pushes the problem further away by not providing an ultimate cause)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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 Message 19 by Portillo, posted 02-23-2012 2:34 AM Portillo has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 22 of 251 (653603)
02-23-2012 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Trixie
02-23-2012 3:02 AM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
I have no problem allowing Buz in here.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Trixie, posted 02-23-2012 3:02 AM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 25 of 251 (653608)
02-23-2012 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Chuck77
02-23-2012 4:10 AM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
Chuck77 writes:
and believe abiogenesis and evolution should not be separated
Yes, but can you try to explain why you think that?
Particuarly if you believe, like Buzz now says, that abiogenesis is not evolution
They appear to be two logically incompatible statements.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Chuck77, posted 02-23-2012 4:10 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Chuck77, posted 02-23-2012 4:32 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(6)
Message 27 of 251 (653610)
02-23-2012 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Chuck77
02-23-2012 4:32 AM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
Chuck77 writes:
I don't think they SHOULD be different.
Whether they should or shouldn't be different is utterly irrelevant - surely you can see that?
They ARE different; that's all that matters.
I think beer should be free; sadly it isn't and no amount of wishing it was different is going to change that fact of life.
You seem to have accepted that they are different but wish they weren't; that's a very human feeling but it's not a rational argument.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Chuck77, posted 02-23-2012 4:32 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Chuck77, posted 02-23-2012 4:46 AM Tangle has not replied
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 02-23-2012 4:49 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 32 of 251 (653618)
02-23-2012 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Chuck77
02-23-2012 4:49 AM


Re: Message from Buzsaw
Chuck77 writes:
Are we just gonna go with your last comment? That "they ARE different, that's all that matters?"
That's up to you. Science believes that the ToE stands independently of abiogenesis and we have explained why.
If you think that is doesn't, you have to show us why it doesn't.
Just saying that it SHOULD be part of the ToE isn't an argument. it's just a wish. Tell us why in terms that aren't simply because you want it to be so.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Chuck77, posted 02-23-2012 4:49 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 49 of 251 (653658)
02-23-2012 12:07 PM


I suppose there's an ancillary question that could be asked in order to help clarify the position:
How would any particular mechanism for the beginnings of life - God, aliens, meteors, abiogenesis etc - affect the evolution of a single species? Say the domestic dog from the grey wolf.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 66 of 251 (653744)
02-24-2012 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Modulous
02-23-2012 7:36 PM


Re: The Theory of Creation
Modulous writes:
I think it might help to try and put oneself in the shoes of the creationist for a little while.
I've been trying to do this for some years and it's one of the main reasons I participate in these sorts of debates. I find it really hard to understand the irrational, a real struggle.
The nearest I get to understanding it is when I force myself to read sites and papers that I know to be nonsense. The mind rebels and it's a real hard task to switch the cognitive dissonance off and examine the claims neutrally and critically, without the preformed bias.
It must be impossibly hard if, instead of a belief in evidence and critical thinking, your world view is fomed and held in place by a belief in a personal god that loves you, probably through personal revelation. Consider the below from Chuck when I asked him to put his beliefs aside and consider the abiogenesis/evolution issue as a logical puzzle, not an ephalump trap.
Message 363 I have to assume that the TOE is true in order for me to answer this question. I do not. To me this is a strawman. If I don't believe the TOE is true nor feel the evidence supports it then this question is irrelevant and only a gotcha question from the stand point of the evolutionist. Once they show evidence for abiogenesis then they can ask this question. You can't have it one way for you and another for creationists.
Chuck finds it actually impossible to examine a concept that is a threat to his core belief. Literally, probably impossible. On my occasional trips to the more outrageous creationist sites, the ones where they don't just get things wrong but also lie to make their propaganda, I suspect I get just a fraction of the mind revolt that a pure creationist gets when confronted by evidence against a young earth or a global flood or evolution.
It's a bit of a puzzle how to break that mental barrier because the better the evidence against the belief, the bigger and stronger the barriers against accepting, or even considering it.
The only time I've seen a creationist's mind change was by another, less extreme, believer. Discussing evidence from atheists is often seen to be the same as discussing it with Satan.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 106 of 251 (654014)
02-26-2012 4:15 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Portillo
02-26-2012 3:50 AM


Re:
Ok, so it's the ToE that we're talking about.
Would you like to answer how it would be changed if God or anything else creted the first life?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Portillo, posted 02-26-2012 3:50 AM Portillo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 120 of 251 (654134)
02-27-2012 4:01 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by marc9000
02-26-2012 8:59 PM


Re: Analogies
marc9000 writes:
I think many (such as myself) claim that evolution, that is ~all claims about evolution~ are less factual/believable THAN THEY WOULD OTHERWISE BE if evolution had more scientific facts about naturalistic origins of life.
From a non-scientist, non-believer in evolution point of view, I can accept that as a reasonable statement.
I think you need to ask yourself though, what you will think when science starts building life from chemistry and has some credible models for how life started? To be honest, I don't think it would make a difference to what you feel about evolution.
Even is science came up with proof (not really a realistic possibility), I think your mind would simply push the problem further back into the creation of all matter. And so on.
How would any study of ID be affected if the designer was;
*The Christian God
*The Flying Spaghetti Monster
*Allah
*Spacemen from another planet
*Any other idea
It wouldn't be affected at all. Does that help?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by marc9000, posted 02-26-2012 8:59 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by marc9000, posted 02-28-2012 8:20 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 148 of 251 (654304)
02-29-2012 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by marc9000
02-28-2012 8:20 PM


Re: Analogies
marc9000 writes:
..... but it won’t make much difference to what I feel about evolution, or fundamental Christianity. Just because scientists finally figure out a way to create life doesn’t automatically mean life happened naturalistically.
No I didn't think it would. Even though evolution itself is proven (in the layman sense) it hasn't stopped creationists believing in Adam and Eve and Floods etc. so a good working hypothesis plus man-made life isn't going to make much diference to them. Their minds can't be changed by facts, they will simply deny them.
quote:
But your question goes both ways, would what you feel about religion or evolution change if ID proponents get on a roll with a lot of peer reviewed papers? If the scientific peer reviewers had no choice but to take them seriously, or risk an obvious exposure of being biased?
I would be genuinely excited - as I was when I first heard about ID. The whole of science would be. Why wouldn't they? Science doesn't/can't argue against real fact and proper science.
All the ID guys have to do is produce some science, it really is that simple.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by marc9000, posted 02-28-2012 8:20 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by marc9000, posted 03-02-2012 8:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 151 of 251 (654311)
02-29-2012 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Trixie
02-29-2012 4:11 AM


Re: Analogies
Trixie writes:
You seem to be arguing that the ToE is utterly dependent on the mechanism which gave rise to the first life. Is it your case that the ToE only works if life arose from abiogenesis?
No, I'm saying - or trying to say - that the ToE doesn't care what the first cause was, it works the same regardless of how first life started.
Edited by Tangle, : bloody quotes...

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Trixie, posted 02-29-2012 4:11 AM Trixie has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 174 of 251 (654711)
03-03-2012 5:12 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by marc9000
03-02-2012 8:26 PM


Re: Analogies
marc9000 writes:
Here's a list of some "nonexistant" peer reviewed publications by ID proponents. Were you not aware that any of this existed? I haven't noticed any excitement by anyone in the scientific community.
Thanks for that - the Discovery Institute web site isn't a place I normally visit for science comment but a change is as good as a rest as my grandad says.
It's a pretty short list isn't it? They are very pleased that 2011 marked the 50th publication, not just of original research for ID but anything they could find anywhere that seemed to support the idea. But that's fair enough I suppose, in the end it would only take one document with the power of Darwin's original book - which incidentally, wasn't peer reviewed - to make a real contribution.
The problem you have is that if you listed the peer reviewed papers for the ToE in the same way, it would quite literally be several million going back over a century. In order to overturn that amount of confirming evidence, ID has to do its own original research and also make it bomb proof. So far nothing they have come up with is good enough, it's all been refuted pretty quickly and simply.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by marc9000, posted 03-02-2012 8:26 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2012 8:46 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 186 of 251 (654839)
03-05-2012 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by marc9000
03-04-2012 8:46 PM


Re: Analogies
We're off topic but your statement that:
Nothing in ID could ever come close to the power of Darwin’s book
....is quite a give away. You are complaining ID can never beat Darwin's ideas but then also implying that the powerful argument is nevertheless wrong. And the reason that it's wrong is because:
It was intellectual fulfillment for atheism, that’s what the selling point was.
Which is nothing more than a conspiracy theory. But, as I say, we're off topic but if you'd like to say why you think this is true in another thread, no doubt it would attract some interest.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by marc9000, posted 03-04-2012 8:46 PM marc9000 has not replied

  
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