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Author Topic:   Evolution is not Abiogenesis
Tangle
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From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 1 of 251 (653545)
02-22-2012 11:38 AM


There have been at least 3 fora in the last month where it has been claimed that evolution isn't true because it doesn't incorporate how life started.

I thought it might be useful to start a thread on how scientists explain the difference between the Theory of Evolution, the various ideas about how life started here on earth and why religious believers find it so hard to grasp what scientists think is a simple and obvious point.

That point being that the ToE starts with life whilst abiogenesis is how life starts.

Consequently, the ToE is agnostic to the cause of life and works independently of that cause.


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
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Admin
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Message 2 of 251 (653547)
02-22-2012 12:09 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Evolution is not Abiogenesis thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Taq
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Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.1


(1)
Message 3 of 251 (653548)
02-22-2012 12:53 PM


Analogies
It might be useful to use examples from other areas of science.

For example, we understand how chemicals can react and produce new molecules. Most of us learned about this in high school. We have a very detailed and natural explanation for how chemicals change. However, we don't have a good theory that explains the ultimate origin of those chemicals. This theory would need to explain how our universe came about, and there really isn't a solid scientific theory that explains this.

So does this mean that we need to throw out the theory that explains how chemicals react and change over time? According to creationists, we do need to throw it out because we lack a theory that explains the ultimate origin of matter.

This is the problem with the creationist argument. It requires us to throw out the knowledge we do have because we do not have all possible knowledge. Not knowing the ultimate origin of matter means that we need to throw out ALL scientific theories, according to creationist logic. This includes atomic theory, germ theory, relativity, gravity, etc.

As to abiogenesis and evolution specifically, the theory of evolution would not change one iota if we found that God magically poofed an RNA replicator into being which then evolved into the biodiversity we see today. The theory of evolution no more depends on the ultimate origin of life than our understanding of chemical interactions depends on the ultimate origin of matter.


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Tangle
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Posts: 4768
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 4 of 251 (653551)
02-22-2012 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Taq
02-22-2012 12:53 PM


Re: Analogies
Taq writes:

The theory of evolution no more depends on the ultimate origin of life than our understanding of chemical interactions depends on the ultimate origin of matter.

I suppose we'd better get this one on the table from the start because it's a deal breaker.

Those that say that evolution is not true because it doesn't incorporate how life started MUST give a credible answer to this question

How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here by any of the different ways we can think of? Including:

1. God did it
2. A meteor brought it
3. Aliens planted it
4. Alphabet primordial soup cooked it up
5. any other idea

(It will be necessary for the creationist to put aside their belief that evolution isn't true and treat this as a puzzle in logic and reason.)

Edited by Tangle, : Improvement suggested by RAZD


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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RAZD
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Message 5 of 251 (653577)
02-22-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
02-22-2012 1:37 PM


quibbles
Hi Tangle, hope this takes off.

How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here by the many different ways we can think of? Including:

1. God did it
2. A meteor brought it
3. Aliens planted it
4. Alphabet primordial soup cooked it up
5. any other idea

(It will be necessary for the creationist to put aside their belief that evolution isn't true and treat this as a puzzle in logic and reason.)

Or any one of the above ... ? [/quibble]

How would the ToE be affected if a pair of replicating molecules got here ...

Which doesn't mean that you have life, just molecules, not a cell structure yet, not a breeding population ... [/quibble]

If anyone wants to discuss where we are scientifically on the development of self replicating molecules see Self-Replicating Molecules - Life's Building Blocks, Part II.

This would also be a good place to introduce what science says the ToE is ... feel free to borrow from Introduction to Evolution (which has not been promoted yet ).

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1148 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 6 of 251 (653579)
02-22-2012 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
02-22-2012 1:37 PM


Re: Analogies
I find this very interesting. I've yet to hear how the ToE would be affected by the different possibilities. Give the number of times we've recently asked this question, I'm surprised that no-one has had a stab at it.

However, I note that this is in a Science forum so Buz won't be able to participate and he's the one that started the recent ball rolling.


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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 347 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


(1)
Message 7 of 251 (653585)
02-22-2012 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trixie
02-22-2012 6:58 PM


Re: Analogies
However, I note that this is in a Science forum so Buz won't be able to participate and he's the one that started the recent ball rolling.

Depending on how masochistic you guys are feeling, you could petition Percy to get Buz the right to post in perhaps just this one topic?


"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

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Warthog
Member (Idle past 1411 days)
Posts: 84
From: Earth
Joined: 01-18-2012


(1)
Message 8 of 251 (653588)
02-22-2012 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
02-22-2012 8:25 PM


Re: Analogies
quote:
Depending on how masochistic you guys are feeling, you could petition Percy to get Buz the right to post in perhaps just this one topic?

Absolutely. This is one that really demands a full quota of creationists. Otherwise, we'll all just end up agreeing with each other in a rational discussion...


Ignorance is a Tragedy
Willful Ignorance is a Sin

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Tanypteryx
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From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.8


(1)
Message 9 of 251 (653589)
02-22-2012 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by hooah212002
02-22-2012 8:25 PM


Re: Analogies
I think we already just saw the full range of buz's contribution in the "Ten Signs" thread. He's a stick in the mud and he's not coming out until he's fossilized.
This message is a reply to:
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jar
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Posts: 29035
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 10 of 251 (653590)
02-22-2012 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Warthog
02-22-2012 8:51 PM


Re: Analogies
There are times for seminars where discussion is free, but there is also a place for the lecture and tutorial where the student listens and takes notes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 347 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 11 of 251 (653591)
02-22-2012 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Tanypteryx
02-22-2012 8:57 PM


Re: Analogies
Na, we all already knew that long ago. It's a) fun to publicly humiliate him and show the error of his beliefs and b) he gets/keeps discussions going, even if it's for all the wrong reasons. Circlejerks are most certainly NOT fun. Hell, he's been pestering Percy for a shot maybe this can be it (even though we all know it will end in a catostrophic-shitstorm-gish-gallop).

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 347 days)
Posts: 3180
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 12 of 251 (653592)
02-22-2012 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
02-22-2012 9:04 PM


Re: Analogies
EvC is neither.

"There is no refutation of Darwinian evolution in existence. If a refutation ever were to come about, it would come from a scientist, and not an idiot." -Dawkins

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jar
Member
Posts: 29035
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 13 of 251 (653593)
02-22-2012 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by hooah212002
02-22-2012 9:07 PM


Re: Analogies
But it can be. It is a great place for those who actually do know to lecture and the rest of us simply read and learn.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 1603 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 14 of 251 (653594)
02-23-2012 12:05 AM


Is prebiotic evolution evolution?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Coyote
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Joined: 01-12-2008
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 15 of 251 (653595)
02-23-2012 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Portillo
02-23-2012 12:05 AM


Question
Let me ask you a question.

Why do creationists insist that abiogenesis is a part of evolution?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

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