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Author Topic:   A Plea to understanding: SCIENCE vs INTELLIGENT DESIGN
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 187 of 230 (655390)
03-09-2012 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by jchardy
03-09-2012 9:32 PM


Re: purpose in science
To me, they’re evidenced by probability and complexity. That’s the only evidence.
How, exactly, do you determine "probability"? Please show your work.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jchardy, posted 03-09-2012 9:32 PM jchardy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by jchardy, posted 03-10-2012 12:50 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 190 of 230 (655399)
03-10-2012 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by jchardy
03-10-2012 12:50 AM


Re: purpose in science
It's clear that many things had to be just right for life to evolve in this universe.
It's not clear at all.
Before you can even begin to determine what characteristics a universe needs to have to produce life, you need to know all the different possible ways that life can arise.
Do you?
BTW, you seem to have skipped over the part where I asked you to show your work. Not that I'm the least bit surprised by that, I fully expected it. But I thought I'd make note, just for kicks.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by jchardy, posted 03-10-2012 12:50 AM jchardy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jchardy, posted 03-10-2012 5:44 PM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 207 of 230 (655504)
03-10-2012 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by jchardy
03-10-2012 5:44 PM


Re: purpose in science
It's clear that many things had to be just right for life to evolve in this universe.
Oddly enough, repeating the same claim in response to a request for clarification doesn't add to the discussion, nor does it make the claim more persuasive.
There is no use to discussing the unknowable.
If there's no use discussing the unknowable, there's even less use basing a hypothesis on such lack of knowledge.
All we can deal with is what we know or can analyze.
And if you cannot know the details of all possible ways life can arise, you cannot begin to assign probabilities of it arising.
I just ignored the request because I didn't think you were serious. What work do you want me to show? What detail?
The calculations you used to come to your conclusion that life is too improbable to have arisen without influence from an intelligent agent. I can't begin to discuss with you your claim that it's improbable without such calculations. Without them, we are left with nothing but you claiming it's so and me disagreeing. That's not a debate.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by jchardy, posted 03-10-2012 5:44 PM jchardy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by jchardy, posted 03-11-2012 12:54 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(2)
Message 208 of 230 (655505)
03-10-2012 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by jchardy
03-10-2012 7:12 PM


Re: [quote] Re: purpose in science
jchardy writes:
quoting Theodoric
quote:
I offer as evidence only the multiple improbabilities of our existence:
And don't you find it amazing how the water in a puddle so neatly conforms to the hole.
Meaningless!
The fact that you don't understand the point doesn't mean it's meaningless.
The conditions on earth are suited to support life because life has adapted to suit the conditions on earth. We don't see life forms that require 10% of earth's gravity to flourish because any such life forms that might have arisen would have been outcompeted by organisms better suited to the conditions that do exist. Similarly, the water in the hole might think that the hole is perfectly designed to hold it, just the right shape and depth. But the fact of the matter is that the water's shape and amount are determined by the hole instead.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by jchardy, posted 03-10-2012 7:12 PM jchardy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by jchardy, posted 03-11-2012 12:43 AM subbie has replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 214 of 230 (655532)
03-11-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by jchardy
03-11-2012 12:43 AM


Re: [quote] Re: purpose in science
I am still at a loss to determine your point here in contrast to my position. Enlighten me!
I'll give it one more go, then you're on your own.
The earth isn't suited to support life that was placed here. Life here evolved to fit the conditions that exist on earth.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by jchardy, posted 03-11-2012 12:43 AM jchardy has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 215 of 230 (655533)
03-11-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by jchardy
03-11-2012 12:54 AM


Re: purpose in science
Rather than going through calculations, none of which would be mine alone, I would ask that you read the summary of Chapter 1 of Mallary's "Our improbable universe" at: Our Improbable Universe - Book Summary - Chapter 1: Fourteen Stepping Stones .
Rather than painstakingly examining that page, point by point, when there's nobody here to defend it, I'll just say this:

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by jchardy, posted 03-11-2012 12:54 AM jchardy has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


(1)
Message 221 of 230 (655610)
03-11-2012 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by jchardy
03-11-2012 4:02 PM


Re: A RELUCTANT FAREWELL
I hope I have opened some minds to realize that there are those of us who believe the probability argument favors some divine direction to the evolution
You haven't opened anyone's eyes here. Your arguments are very familiar to us all, we've heard them dozens of times before, sometimes by people considerably more adept at presenting them than you were.
I hope many see that many of us seek out science --- not to validate our beliefs, but rather to expand our knowledge base, utilizing science without the fear that the foundations of our belief might be destroyed.
This little bit of self-delusion is a common characteristic of IDers.
If challenges to our beliefs occur, we are willing to accept those disruptions without losing respect for and toward those who present those challenges.
Your time here illustrates quite clearly that this is not true.
There are those who demand winning, and when they sense they may be losing the argument, will pull out all the stops, ignoring ethical concerns, and use personal attack, false allegations and demeaning rhetoric to undermine credible argument.
This is quite true. And, as we see in this thread, it's the anti-science types like yourself who do this.
[Percy] misrepresented my credentials for purposes of lowering my veracity, undermining the validity of my arguments which he apparently saw were being threatened.
If it makes you feel any better, I didn't have a high opinions of your arguments, your credibility or your intelligence before Percy posted anything personal about you. In fact, I strongly suspected that you didn't have even the credentials that you apparently do have. So, if credentials made difference to me, Percy affirming that you were in fact a physician would have helped your case.
SO, WITH RELUCTANCE, I AM TERMINATING MY PARTICIPATION IN THIS FORUM BUT DO GREATLY APPRECIATE THE EXCHANGES I HAVE BENEFITTED FROM DURING THE PAST TWO WEEKS.
Your participation here was unremarkable in the extreme, displaying the kind of typical ad hoc rationalizations we have seen time and time again from godbots of various stripes over the years, puctuated nicely by a demonstrated inability to follow even the most elementary types of argument. I truly hope that you have benefitted from these exchanges, although your melodramatic exit strongly suggests you haven't.
In short, you will not be missed and your input will soon be forgotten, unless someone finds some kernel of something useful in the thread other than what you have said.
Enjoy the rest of your retirement.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by jchardy, posted 03-11-2012 4:02 PM jchardy has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1245 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 225 of 230 (655924)
03-14-2012 9:37 PM


Start wrong, resist any attempts by anyone else to correct you and help you understand your errors, then claim victory on your way out the door. The creo gameplan in a nutshell.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

  
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