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Author Topic:   The 50-50-50-50-50 tax and economic plan.
ringo
Member
Posts: 12920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 46 of 75 (745849)
12-28-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
12-28-2014 12:11 PM


Re: News from the Pope and others ... Unconditional Basic Income
RAZD writes:

... you no longer have to take a job just to live no matter how crummy, demeaning and disrespectful it is.


Employers might have to improve their crummy, demeaning and disrespectful working conditions to compete. Entrepreneurs love to compete.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 12-28-2014 12:11 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 75 (745889)
12-28-2014 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
12-28-2014 12:11 PM


Re: News from the Pope and others ... Unconditional Basic Income
What does the Pope have to do with this?

Sounds like the author of the article is just throwing his name around for effect.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 12-28-2014 12:11 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 48 of 75 (745936)
12-29-2014 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
12-28-2014 12:11 PM


The Inflating Universe
If I have my sums right, using 2013 US Census population data for adults/children, the cost to the USA would be about $9.3 trillion. We could pay for this by taxing corporations more but the tax rate would have to be around 442% of gross profits. In 2013 all corporate profits were about $2.1 trillion. How would we pay for this?

Even in a much smaller nation I would have concerns trying to afford the cost of this when the economic engine cannot produce the value that is to be transferred away. For all our trying no one has been able to find a better than devastating way to get more value from a society then its economy can generate. Just ask the Soviets. Cept you can't cuz their economy imploded and they're not here no more.

Then there is this.

The average US family of 4 would be given $96,000 per year just 'cuz. At the time I had such an average US family of 4, we would have lived quite comfortably on $96K ... so why work? I live comfortable. I really don't need a yacht, so what's the incentive? Being optimistic I could see where a good 40%++ of the US work force would be on self-imposed extended vacation for a couple of decades.

Whose going to flip burgers at McDuck's? OK, so you're going to raise the pay scale as an incentive. The kid is already pulling in $1500 a month, just how high would the pay scale have to be to get him to put on his apron? What would have to be the cost of an order of fries to pay for that raised pay scale?

And this scenario would play out for every good/service in the economy badly eroding the value of my Unconditional Basic Income which I didn't have to earn by being productive and efficient in the workplace strengthening and expanding the economy so my unconditional income really has nothing to underpin and stabilize its value. Since the entire purpose of the UBI is to "secure a minimum livelihood and enable a participation in society" then with this cost of living getting steeper I'm gonna need a raise. Rinse, repeat.

OK, yank the apron from the $60 an hour kid and put a robot in the drive-thru window.

Do ... you ... want ... fries ... with ... that?

One of the reasons stated for a UBI is the next round of the machine age throwing more folks out of work. In reality it makes the robot that much more imperative. A self-fulling prophesy?

No conclusions. No recommendations. Just sayin'.

Edited by AZPaul3, : title


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 12-28-2014 12:11 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 12-30-2014 10:40 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-30-2014 10:57 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2014 4:53 PM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 75 (745957)
12-30-2014 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
12-29-2014 9:53 PM


Re: The Inflating Universe
All great objections, and a flat UBI is probably a very dumb idea indeed.

I would recommend a minimum income that is granted based on need and funded with taxes on corporations and the wealthy (who undoubtedly are the ones benefiting from the low wages that make everyone poor to begin with). An amount that is based on inflation and starts as a certain percentage probably upwards of 100% of the poverty level might be a good start.

Some of your objections might still apply to this, such as whether we could get people to flip burgers at McDonald's, but from what I can tell, I don't think the world would be in that rough of shape without businesses like McDonald's anyway, so I can't really justify any lamentation of their loss.

For those industries which are essential, we might see the price of their goods/services rising to a level that actually reflects their cost to a better degree. When the price of McDonald's goes up, people might stop buying stuff from McDonald's. When the price of electricity and waste disposal goes up, people might start using less electricity and making less waste, and the negativities associated with those industries would be better internalized and not thrown on the workers (e.g., coal miners who are currently forced to eat the cost of their decreased health and are not properly compensated for what they are really giving up).

One of the reasons stated for a UBI is the next round of the machine age throwing more folks out of work. In reality it makes the robot that much more imperative. A self-fulling prophesy?

So long as capitalism remains the dominant system, there will be no way to mitigate the negative effects of mass mechanization short of government intervention.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2014 9:53 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 50 of 75 (745959)
12-30-2014 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
12-29-2014 9:53 PM


Re: The Inflating Universe
AZPaul3 writes:

For all our trying no one has been able to find a better than devastating way to get more value from a society then its economy can generate. Just ask the Soviets. Cept you can't cuz their economy imploded and they're not here no more.


I don't think that's a fair example. It could be argued that the Soviet economy imploded because the Western nations spent untold billions for almost half a century trying to make it implode.

Edited by ringo, : Fixed quote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2014 9:53 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 51 of 75 (745964)
12-30-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ringo
12-30-2014 10:57 AM


Re: The reaganomics recession -- the cold cash war
... It could be argued that the Soviet economy imploded because the Western nations spent untold billions for almost half a century trying to make it implode.

And Reagan nearly drove the US into bankruptcy in the process. Or don't we remember the reaganomics recession?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 12-30-2014 10:57 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 52 of 75 (746037)
12-31-2014 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by AZPaul3
12-29-2014 9:53 PM


Re: The Inflating Universe
If I have my sums right, using 2013 US Census population data for adults/children, the cost to the USA would be about $9.3 trillion. ...

Can you live on $50/day? Want to try? Leave your house, find an apartment and see how far you get on $50/day. Take your spouse along and make it $100/day. When I lived by myself in an apartment it cost me $600 to $700 a month on top of a $600/month rent.

... The average US family of 4 would be given $96,000 per year just 'cuz ...

quote:
Message 1: 1. give every registered tax payer $50 per day (= $18,250.00 per year) and eliminate welfare, unemployment, social security and government pensions (including those of congress, etc). You can opt to collect this weekly, monthly or annually (at tax time).

A family of four with two registered voters would get $36,500.00.

Where I live (RI) poverty wages for a family of four (2 adults 2 children) is $10.60/hour ($84.80/day(8 hour), $424.00/week (40 hour), $22,048.00/year), living wage is $19.17/hr ($153.36/day(8 hour), $766.80/week (40 hour), $39873.60/year).

http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/44

So $50/day (1 worker) is $6.25/hr for an 8 hour day, $350.00/week (7 day), $18,250.00 per year ... ie less than poverty wage, but probably close to what welfare and stamps pay. Hardly yacht financing wages ... with two registered adults the total comes to $36,500/yr, which is still less than a living wage, but close to it.

... How would we pay for this?

The same way we pay for current programs but with less overhead as the whole program can be rolled into the tax code and administered by one federal department, the IRS.

Whose going to flip burgers at McDuck's? OK, so you're going to raise the pay scale as an incentive. The kid is already pulling in $1500 a month, just how high would the pay scale have to be to get him to put on his apron? What would have to be the cost of an order of fries to pay for that raised pay scale?

If the kid is old enough to vote he gets $350/week, $1,500/month (30 days).

Note that most fast food workers are single parents and many of the "kids" have college degrees. Kids under voting ages would still have to work for basic wage.

Yes the company would need to make the pay attractive to have adult workers, or hire more kids. The adults can afford to bargain for better pay because they don't have starving children at home. The pay for one working adult (leaving the other home to care for the kids) would be sufficient to get over the living wage line, and start being able to move up the economic ladder. Even $2/hr ($16/day, $80/week, $4,160/yr) would take the family out of sub-living wage zone to $40,660/year, and on the road to growth and prosperity.

For a single adult the poverty wage is $5.21/hr ($41.68/day(8 hour), $208.40/week (40 hour), $10,836.80/year),
and the living wage is $9.93/hr ($79.44/day(8 hour), $397.20/week (40 hour), $20,654.40/year), so he would not be at poverty wage level, but would have to earn $2,404.40/year to get to a living wage (or about $1.16/hr for 52x40 hour weeks). It would be a pretty sad company that could not afford $1.20/hr or $2.00/hr as their base pay.

It would not be a cushion, it would be one (solid) step up the ladder. One that isn't lost the minute you start earning a wage.

Do ... you ... want ... fries ... with ... that?

One of the reasons stated for a UBI is the next round of the machine age throwing more folks out of work. In reality it makes the robot that much more imperative. A self-fulling prophesy?

Somehow factory food is not that appealing, especially with Monsanto frankenfood ...

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by AZPaul3, posted 12-29-2014 9:53 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2014 6:08 PM RAZD has responded
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 11:41 AM RAZD has responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3427
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 53 of 75 (746038)
12-31-2014 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by RAZD
12-31-2014 4:53 PM


Re: The Inflating Universe
Can you live on $50/day? Want to try?

What $50/day? I'm not talking about your $50/day scheme. I'm addressing the Unconditional Basic Income proposal at your Message 44.

$2500/month = $30,000/year per adult. $1500/month = $18,000/year per child.

Typical family of 2 adults + 2 kids = $96,000/year.

You changed lanes without signaling.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2014 4:53 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by RAZD, posted 01-01-2015 2:45 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 54 of 75 (746069)
01-01-2015 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by AZPaul3
12-31-2014 6:08 PM


guaranteed base income and the topic
What $50/day? I'm not talking about your $50/day scheme. I'm addressing the Unconditional Basic Income proposal at your Message 44.

You changed lanes without signaling.

Ah, excuse me for thinking we were talking about the topic of the thread, where the program noted in Message 44 was cited as an example of growing movements in other countries (and promoted by the Pope), to support the idea of having a guaranteed base income ...

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by AZPaul3, posted 12-31-2014 6:08 PM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12920
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 55 of 75 (746100)
01-02-2015 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by RAZD
12-31-2014 4:53 PM


Re: The Inflating Universe
RAZD writes:

Can you live on $50/day?


According to my calculations, that would come to a little over $18,000 per year. I made that much a few years in my life, not very many.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2014 4:53 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by RAZD, posted 01-02-2015 3:39 PM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 56 of 75 (746115)
01-02-2015 3:39 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
01-02-2015 11:41 AM


Re: The Inflating Universe
According to my calculations, that would come to a little over $18,000 per year. I made that much a few years in my life, not very many.

$18,250/yr, yes, it is doable, and 10 to 20 years ago much more so. That is above poverty wage but below living wage, ...

Message 52:For a single adult the poverty wage is $5.21/hr ($41.68/day(8 hour), $208.40/week (40 hour), $10,836.80/year),
and the living wage is $9.93/hr ($79.44/day(8 hour), $397.20/week (40 hour), $20,654.40/year), so he would not be at poverty wage level, but would have to earn $2,404.40/year to get to a living wage (or about $1.16/hr for 52x40 hour weeks). It would be a pretty sad company that could not afford $1.20/hr or $2.00/hr as their base pay.

... which means some compromise must be made on food or healthcare or shelter. Sharing shelter is the easiest.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : added data

Edited by RAZD, : modata


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 01-02-2015 11:41 AM ringo has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11247
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 57 of 75 (746117)
01-02-2015 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
03-01-2012 1:47 PM


Would I be able to opt-out?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 03-01-2012 1:47 PM RAZD has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18257
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 58 of 75 (746633)
01-08-2015 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
01-02-2015 4:10 PM


50-50 for you and 50-50 for me (Chico Marx)
Would I be able to opt-out?

Do you want to opt out of society?

Consider the proposition that half of what you make is due to your individual effort and half of it is due to the socio-economic society you live in.

Contributing half your earnings (via taxes) to build a happy, well educated and healthy society means that you get to live in a society with happy, well educated and healthy people.

Part of the pursuit of happiness is that you need a happy environment to live in yes?

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-02-2015 4:10 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 01-08-2015 8:47 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 61 by New Cat's Eye, posted 01-09-2015 9:29 AM RAZD has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 75 (746644)
01-08-2015 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by RAZD
01-08-2015 5:48 PM


Re: 50-50 for you and 50-50 for me (Chico Marx)
So can he opt out or not?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 01-08-2015 5:48 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28677
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 60 of 75 (746646)
01-08-2015 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Jon
01-08-2015 8:47 PM


Re: 50-50 for you and 50-50 for me (Chico Marx)
He should be free to opt out of receiving benefits but not opt out of funding the benefits.

Edited by jar, : appalin spallin


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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