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PaulK
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Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
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Message 75 of 307 (655525)
03-11-2012 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by shadow71
03-10-2012 7:06 PM


quote:
It appears to me that metaphysical naturalists do require faith. The faith that everything is and comes from natural explanations and that anyone who believes otherwise is not really competent.
It seems to me that if you're reduced to trying to pretend that your opponent's position ha the same flaws as yours then you pretty much know that your position is indefensible.
Firstly, there's no need for faith in the religious sense at all. Why should there be? Metaphysical naturalism isn't a dogma severely tried by the evidence. It doesn't even have a problem as bad as the Problem of Evil is for Christianity.
Secondly, let us note that the success of science tells us that a preference for natural causes has been a very good idea, and simply settling for theologically convenient conclusions has not. Even William Dembski has admitted that naturalistic explanations should be preferred.
Thirdly, I fail to see how you can claim that anyone who accepts naturalism must presume incompetence in the case of anyone who concludes otherwise. I suppose that this is just a foolish and dishonest attempt to mirror the fact that Young Earth Creationists must presume incompetence on the part of any scientists who conclude that the Earth or the Universe are very old. Which means virtualy every scientist active in the relevant fields.
Granted that incompetence is often demonstrated in the case of those arguing against naturalism, but a demonstration is a long way from an assumption.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by shadow71, posted 03-10-2012 7:06 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by shadow71, posted 03-11-2012 1:11 PM PaulK has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 96 of 307 (655553)
03-11-2012 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by shadow71
03-11-2012 1:11 PM


quote:
I didn't say anything about naturalism, but was talking about "Metaphysical naturalism" which by definition rules out all but natural causes for such issues as the origin of life and the origin of the universe
Same thing, just without the big scary capitals.
quote:
People like Dawkilns who ridicules anyone believing in a supernatural being. Allthough he does it for the money, there is still no excuse for such arrogrance.
The arrogance is all yours. Lying and slandering doesn't make your position any more reasonable. It only proves that it isn't.

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 Message 81 by shadow71, posted 03-11-2012 1:11 PM shadow71 has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 117 of 307 (655574)
03-11-2012 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by foreveryoung
03-11-2012 2:12 PM


Re: faith vs assumptions and knowledge by natural means
quote:
What other reason can you think of for the situation where you provide the exact same initial conditions and you get a different result everytime?
Chance. Intelligent agents don't choose different outcomes just for the sake of it. And if you can't EXACTLY replicate initial conditions even a chaotic system would be enough. Small differences in initial conditions can make a big difference in the final outcome.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 118 of 307 (655575)
03-11-2012 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by foreveryoung
03-11-2012 2:10 PM


Re: Fool me once
quote:
I have read the support somewhere for the authenticity of the current protestant cannon. A brief google already showed me some I have never read. There is a good reason to believe the current protestant cannon is supernaturally inspired.
No, there isn't. In fact there is good reason to believe otherwise. But that's a subject for another thread. Really if you actually have what you think is "good evidence" produce it and we'll show that it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
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