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Author Topic:   No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 76 of 140 (720778)
02-27-2014 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Taq
02-27-2014 4:39 PM


I already showed how the odds against that render it basically impossible.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 4:39 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 5:14 PM Faith has responded
 Message 85 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 7:11 PM Faith has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 77 of 140 (720789)
02-27-2014 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
02-27-2014 4:43 PM


Faith writes:

I already showed how the odds against that render it basically impossible.

No you didn't. You have not shown anything.

You just keep making "Pronouncements According To Faith" that are completely unsupported by evidence. You are the only one here using faith to try and bolster your argument.

You continue to deny beneficial mutations even though you have been given example after example. You just keep repeating it but never support it with evidence or research.

And then you have the arrogance to ridicule the people who who are knowledgeable in the subject and are trying to teach you something.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 4:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:23 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 78 of 140 (720798)
02-27-2014 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tanypteryx
02-27-2014 5:14 PM


Oh I showed it all right, showed all the impossible situations involved. Some people are blind of course.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 5:14 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 5:31 PM Faith has responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 79 of 140 (720809)
02-27-2014 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:23 PM


No Faith, you just keep saying the same stuff, without a single study or piece of evidence. Your fantasies are not evidence. Good grief, where's the beef?

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:23 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:33 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 80 of 140 (720811)
02-27-2014 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tanypteryx
02-27-2014 5:31 PM


I guess you didn't read my well reasoned detailed argument that SHOWS that mutation could not possibly have been the source of the allele for black pocket mice.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 5:31 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 5:50 PM Faith has responded
 Message 84 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 7:10 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 81 of 140 (720823)
02-27-2014 5:50 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:33 PM


I read what you wrote, but it is wrong and not supported by anything but your own fantasies.

that SHOWS that mutation could not possibly have been the source of the allele for black pocket mice.

It does not show that at all. All the evidence is completely contrary to what you say.

I have been reading your fantasies here for years and so far all I have seen you show is your delusional claims to have shown us something.

Taq and RAZD have shown you evidence over and over, but you are blinded by the bible.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 6:04 PM Tanypteryx has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 82 of 140 (720828)
02-27-2014 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Tanypteryx
02-27-2014 5:50 PM


Sorry, Tanypteryx. ONE mutation for black fur in a population absolutely devoid of that allele must

must show up just in time for when it's needed, against astronomical odds

ABE: Must show up at one of the genes for fur color

Must not be one of those "neutral" mutations that don't do anything at all /ABE

must show up in a germ cell, against astronomical odds

and that one germ cell has to somehow get selected for parenthood, against astronomical odds

and the two black furred babies out of four that are born must somehow survive the predator that has kept the population light colored forever, against astronomical odds

and survive to adulthood, against astronomical odds

and then just in time venture onto the black lava which will protect them, against astronomical odds.

There is no answer to this logic. So sorry you seem to have a problem understanding it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 5:50 PM Tanypteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 7:09 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 86 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-27-2014 8:44 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 88 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2014 11:41 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 83 of 140 (720837)
02-27-2014 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
02-27-2014 6:04 PM


Sorry, Tanypteryx. ONE mutation for black fur in a population absolutely devoid of that allele must
must show up just in time for when it's needed,

How so? The black lava fields could have been around for 1 million years before a mutation happened to produce the population we see today. The black lava fields themselves are more than a million years old. Per the topic, the sequence variation for the black fur allele is quite low which would point to a more recent emergence of the dark allele as part of a founder-flush model.

must show up in a germ cell, against astronomical odds

Let's see your calculations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 6:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 84 of 140 (720839)
02-27-2014 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:33 PM


I guess you didn't read my well reasoned detailed argument that SHOWS that mutation could not possibly have been the source of the allele for black pocket mice.

I guess you didn't read my response showing why the argument was wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 5:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6827
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 85 of 140 (720840)
02-27-2014 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
02-27-2014 4:43 PM


I already showed how the odds against that render it basically impossible.

Where are your calculations?

Added by edit:

To help you along with those calculations, here are some of the variables you need to include.

First, you need find all of the mutations that would lead to dark fur in the light fur population. According to the oft cited paper, there are 80 genes involved in fur color phenotype:

"Approximately 80 genes have been identified that affect coat color in the laboratory mouse, and more than one-quarter of these have been molecularly characterized (11)."
http://www.pnas.org/content/100/9/5268.long

The first thing you need to do is identify every sequence change, both in the translated protein and promoter regions, that would result in dark fur in those 80 genes. Second, you need to include the mutation rate in mice, their population numbers, and the odds of one of those mutations occuring in a mouse close to the lava fields.

Since you claim that the odds are way too high, surely you have already done these calculations, right?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 4:43 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 02-28-2014 1:30 AM Taq has responded

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 1514
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 86 of 140 (720844)
02-27-2014 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
02-27-2014 6:04 PM


Faith writes:

Sorry, Tanypteryx. ONE mutation for black fur in a population absolutely devoid of that allele must
must show up just in time for when it's needed, against astronomical odds

First, what do you mean just in time? The lave fields are over 1 million years old. If the mice had just 1 generation per year that would be one black mutation in a million generations.

That could hardly be described as "just in time for when it's needed."

We already know you would never be able to calculate the odds for anything, so it is obvious you are just making it up. The clue is you using "astronomical". Astronomical is not a number. It has no meaning in this context.

must show up in a germ cell, against astronomical odds

Once again, you are just making it up. You have no idea what the odds are. And again with the meaningless "astronomical odds."

and that one germ cell has to somehow get selected for parenthood, against astronomical odds

Still more made up delusions with un-calculated, incalculable odds.

and the two black furred babies out of four that are born must somehow survive the predator that has kept the population light colored forever, against astronomical odds

Again, un-calculated odds.

and survive to adulthood, against astronomical odds

Still more delusional odds.

and then just in time venture onto the black lava which will protect them, against astronomical odds.

And more fantasy odds.

There is no answer to this logic. So sorry you seem to have a problem understanding it.

There is no logic involved in anything you have said. It is pure delusional fantasy.

You just make stuff up, but you never back it up with facts or a well reasoned argument, ever.

I am wondering just how much "astronomical" is and what units do you use to measure it?

Get real Faith. Your ignorance of probabilities and genetics is glaringly obvious to anyone reading this thread. You have convinced me of one thing. The probability of you ever demonstrating an understanding of genetics or any other science is approaching zero.


What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 6:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 170 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 87 of 140 (720851)
02-27-2014 10:32 PM


After seeing a result like this, the obvious question to ask is, “How certain are we that the Australian rabbits actually descended from only 13 original ancestors?”

This article from CSIRO (the Australian federal science agency) states that rabbits were brought to Australia on the First Fleet in 1788, more than 70 years before they were supposed to have been introduced into the wild, and that rabbits had been kept in captivity continuously from then until now.

Furthermore, the Europeans seem to have commonly kept rabbits on their ships while sailing across the globe, and they seem to have been planted in many places this way. And, a lot of those ships went to Australia (some of my ancestors actually came through Australia). So, I find it hard to believe that there was never any other influx of rabbits, aside from one original handful.

Not only that, but this article by an Australian pest control service asserts that different populations of rabbits in Australia show differences in coat patterns. I can't verify that information, so it could be wrong. But, perhaps there have been too many assumptions made in this discussion.


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 02-28-2014 1:49 AM Blue Jay has responded
 Message 92 by Tangle, posted 02-28-2014 4:01 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded
 Message 93 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2014 9:24 AM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 88 of 140 (720858)
02-27-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
02-27-2014 6:04 PM


Frankie Mouse to the Rescue!
Sorry, Tanypteryx. ONE mutation for black fur in a population absolutely devoid of that allele must
must show up just in time for when it's needed, against astronomical odds.

Really? What makes you think this mutation hadn't happened some thousands of generations past? Or only once? Or one mutation instead of 3 or 4 in multiple sets of mousie fur color genes? Can you honestly say that this dark fur mutation(s) hadn't popped up before ... in a population of hundreds of thousands ... with a sprinkling of a few here and there every generation for many, many generations involving multiple different genes in multiple different ways? Why do you assume that evolution all of a sudden, one time, went ... POOF! You're black, Mouse! ... and that it happened at "just the right time"?

Might it be that dark fur conveyed no survival/reproductive advantage in the lighter environs, thus did not become a significant attribute of the population? Might it be that once the black lava fields arrived these very few expressions of dark fur now conveyed that survival/reproductive advantage and thus has now, a few hundred generations later, become a dominate feature of the population?

Can you guarantee that, today, a linage of dark furred mousies cannot have a mutated lighter furred oddball in the family, and that maybe, over a population of hundreds of thousands, this happens some small number of times in each generation? What do you think would happen to the population if, say, the Magratheans layered a permanent light saddle-brown spray paint over the area? Maybe the light saddle-brown micies would have the advantage and become the dominate attribute in, let's say, 200 generations or so?

Of course not. That's ridiculous. The Maratheans don't have spray paints!

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 6:04 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Faith, posted 02-28-2014 1:15 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 89 of 140 (720862)
02-28-2014 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by AZPaul3
02-27-2014 11:41 PM


Re: Frankie Mouse to the Rescue!
Why should any particular mutation be expected, AZPaul? They ARE random "accidents" aren't they? Let alone one that turns out to be beneficial right when it's needed, at the very gene where it is needed, and it isn't a "neutral" mutation and so on and so forth. And if it DOES recur then that gives credence to my own theory of a recurring normal allele anyway.

It was Taq, not I, who claimed the population was devoid of this allele and that I had to be wrong that it was a normally recurring allele, because it's dominant. I figured and I still figure that it IS a normally recurring allele, but that most of the dark furred mousies that result from its occasional expression get eaten by the owl that likes them so much, because this occurs on the light colored sand among millions of his light-colored mousie brethren. Since it recurs from time to time, when the light mousies ventured onto the lava, its occasional appearance was selected, the light mousies all expired due to the owl's taste for them and the black mousies proliferated.

Now on the lava field I would expect that the allele for the light mousie occurs rarely just as the allele for the black one does on the sand, the owl gets his light colored mousie meal there just as he gets his dark colored mousie meal on the sand.

Taq however told me this couldn't be the case, that the black fur allele couldn't be a recurring allele because it's dominant; therefore it was a one-time mutation; to which I replied that the odds are simply astronomically against such an event.

There are supposedly other indicators. I wonder if they also describe the rare light fur allele on the lava.

So you are welcome to run your theory by Taq. I've given my own.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by AZPaul3, posted 02-27-2014 11:41 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by RAZD, posted 02-28-2014 9:41 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 95 by Taq, posted 02-28-2014 10:54 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 97 by AZPaul3, posted 02-28-2014 3:03 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25606
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 90 of 140 (720863)
02-28-2014 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Taq
02-27-2014 7:11 PM


I missed this post and it IS very interesting. Many opportunities to get a dark mousie. Or a light one for that matter. Perhaps even other colors with that many opportunities unless those alleles no longer occur for some reason.

AND mutations are STILL accidents, most of them ARE neutral or deleterious, and didn't you say the light colored population is absolutely devoid of the dark allele, so that if the dark allele is dominant in all 80 genes you still have to wait around for it to occur at the right time in the right place kind of out of the blue as it were. Granted there are many more opportunities than were first presented, but this new information simply makes it a lot more likely that we're talking about normally occurring dominant "D" alleles scattered through the population and not mutations.

ABE: You know what I'd also guess with that many genes for fur color? That there are many shades of fur possible, it isn't only dark and light. /ABE

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Taq, posted 02-27-2014 7:11 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Taq, posted 02-28-2014 10:59 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 98 by NosyNed, posted 02-28-2014 3:19 PM Faith has responded

    
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