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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: How do "novel" features evolve? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
(1) The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities Changes in the composition of traits in breeding populations cannot create new structures where none existed before. It cannot change keratin into collagen no matter how many different traits occur in a population.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
How is this off topic? I would like to know what this forum defines as off topic.
The difference between keratin and collagen is chemical. Evolution does not need to change one into the other -- rather what evolution would do is change the production process so that collagen is produced where keratin had previously been produced. This just requires a simple change in the amino acid sequence during assembly, a rather common mutation process An animal that depends on keratin for survival will not live if the keratin genes have been destroyed before collagen genes can be evolved. The keratin production process must be fully functional while the collagen genes are forming from a previously unusable genetic sequence. Like I said, random mutations will not produce the collagen gene sequence because there is nothing to select during the various mutations and reshuffling until the correct amino acid sequence is produced.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
How is this off topic? I would like to know what this forum defines as off topic.
One looks at the title and the opening post to determine what the topic is. If in doubt ask the author. I did those things except asking administration, and I fail to see how what I wrote was offtopic.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
This is making an unevidenced, unsupported statement that purports to delineate a limitation to evolution. I understand that that is the way you perceive what I stated, but it is a mischaracterization of my intentions. It may be unevidenced and unsupported, but that is irrelevant to the purpose of my post. It is my opinion that is based on my analyses of what I understand evolution to be. It is an example my mind came up with that seems logical in its presentation. The situation I came up with does seem improbable for random mutation and natural selection to produce. I gave the reasons for its improbability. Can you point out the flaws in my logic instead of saying it is unevidenced and unsupported? Does a thought experiment have to have evidence? As for support, if the conclusion is supported by the underlying reasoning, it has support. If you are going to claim it is unsupported, you are going to have to show how the reasoning is faulty.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Hi guys Thanks for your patience in explaining so many things on here. I really learned a lot. It will take me quite a few weeks to digest all this new information (to me). Multiple allelles explained in a way that is easily understandable. So simple when you think about it. It all makes sense. What a wonderful world. However, I know it must be very frustrating to convey and try to explain something about our world to somebody with the mentality of a loaf of bread. Be assured that not all of us are like that and really appreciate all the knowledge passed on so freely here! Who the hell was this sarcastic comment directed at? Fuck you, even if it wasn't directed at me. Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Where you come from is the pits of hell. {Text hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Hide text, add banner.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Getting down to my level huh? What a hypocrite.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Opinion is not science, nor has it been shown to have any effect on reality in any way. That is irrelevant if you wish to falsify my claims. .me writes: .. It is an example my mind came up with that seems logical in its presentation. ... To you, however without any evidence to show that your premises are correct it is just your opinion again. Yes, it is an opinion that I am asking you to falsify. Repeating the same old "give me evidence" doesn't falsify a thing.
Logic based solely on opinion is not necessarily valid in any way, and is as likely to be wrong as not (if not more so - there are more ways to be wrong than right). Logic is either right or it is wrong. It is based upon premises. The premises can be false and the logic can still be flawless. Either falsify my premises or show the errors in my logic, but please don't interrupt the train of argument and frustrate me with demands for "evidence". .me writes: .. Does a thought experiment have to have evidence? ... If it is a scientific thought experiment it would need to be based on evidence. Otherwise it is just fantasy, made up. Even a situation that may not exist in reality can either be logical or illogical. I am asking you to show me the illogic in my argument.
me writes: ... As for support, if the conclusion is supported by the underlying reasoning, it has support. If you are going to claim it is unsupported, you are going to have to show how the reasoning is faulty. If the premises are faulty or imaginary there is every reason to expect the conclusion would be faulty or imaginary. A house of cards only stands if each layer is supported by the one below and the bottom layer rests on a firm foundation - you can't build a house of cards in the air. You can ,however, knock down my argument as if the premises are true, or you can falsify my premises. Please do one or the other or both. Just please quite the tired old "evidence" malarkey.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
How do you determine what is evidence and what isn't evidence without logic? How do you know what is reality? Is reality discovered strictly by science? Is any notion that is contradicted by science by definition "not reality"?
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Sorry, but this is a completely mistaken view of logic. Logic is either valid or invalid. Logic is a set of "transformations" that input premises and output conclusions, with the proviso that each transformation is valid if it preserves the truth value of the input; that is, if you input true premises and use only valid transformations, then your conclusions will be similarly true. Logic is based on premises, but the truth or falsity of those premises cannot be proven, they can only be assumed. Statements in logic are therefore all tautologies; only true because their premises are assumed. It is for this reason that science is based on evidence, not logic. Propositions in science rest or fall on the basis of evidence. If you cannot marshal evidence in favor of your views, it's unreasonable to expect anyone to accept them. Many things we know to be false about the universe are completely logical; the "luminiferous ether" was assumed to exist based on the very simple logic that if light is a wave, it must be a wave of something. But the existence of the luminiferous ether was disproven by the Michaelson-Morley experiment in 1887. Evidence is not "malarkey", it is the basis of all scientific reasoning. My arguments are either valid or invalid. Please either refute my premises or refute my argument. Are you going to do that or are you going to ask me for evidence again?
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Evidence is that which lends support to a hypothesis. Reality can be discovered only by observation of it. How do you know if your "evidence" lends support to a hypothesis without the use of logic? Reality can exist without your observation of it.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
I don't have the first idea of how I would go about finding it. I have no idea what is acceptable evidence to you guys. My suspicion is anything that doesn't have a whiff of creationism about it as qualified as evidence. When you ask me for evidence, it is like throwing a ping pong ball at me and expecting me to answer a question of yours that you have hidden behind your back on a piece of paper. I don't have the first clue as to how to proceed from there. I have an argument and my opponent doesn't address my argument; instead he demands evidence. I want to proceed with my argument, but now it is impossible because my opponent refuses to address my argument, and so I look at him with a blank stare.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Reality is what we can observe and test. Nice little unsubstantiated claim. Prove it.
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
You assume that I need to falsify any fantasy you construct. In effect you want me to do the work that YOU should do if you want me to consider your concept to be anything but fantasy. I don't need to falsify fantasy, I can simply ignore it. Calling something a fantasy is an easy way out of disproving an argument. Are you calling every argument a fantasy? If so, why do we argue any point at all if they are all fantasies?
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foreveryoung Member (Idle past 603 days) Posts: 921 Joined: |
Message 52: Changes in the composition of traits in breeding populations cannot create new structures where none existed before. ... This is a falsified assertion. See Message 61 for one example. You are going to have to do better than that. How does message 61 falsify my assertion?
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