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Author Topic:   Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?
jar
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Posts: 28434
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 46 of 76 (671293)
08-24-2012 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 1:14 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
In addition to the issues pointed out in the two replies above, why must a true Canon contain the New Testament?

The Law and the Prophets was good enough for Jesus, must man add more?

Second, what the hell is the "True" New Testament?

Where's 1 Enoch?

Who decides what is the "True" New Testament?

By Orthodox Church do you mean the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Samaritan Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 1:14 AM foreveryoung has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:12 AM jar has responded

  
foreveryoung
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Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 47 of 76 (671305)
08-24-2012 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Dr Adequate
08-24-2012 2:57 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
DrAdequate writes:

Er, no. The canon of every other Christian tradition includes everything in the Protestant canon plus some books. So if the Protestant OT canon has "all the books referenced by the true new testament canon", then so do all the others.

Besides which, as has been pointed out, the Protestant OT canon doesn't contain the Book of Enoch, which is referenced in the book of Jude. And the book of Jude is in the Protestant NT canon. So if it was true that "the protestant old testament canon is the only one that has all the books referenced by the true new testament canon", then the Protestants have the wrong NT canon, since the book of Jude is in the Protestant NT canon but the book of Enoch isn't.

Jude is not referencing the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch was not around when Jude was written. Jude is referencing a common theme throughout the Old Testament and is more likely referencing Deuteronomy 33:2 but the idea is also found in Zechariah 14:5, Isaiah 66:15, and Psalms 96:3. In reality, both Jude and the book of Enoch are referencing the same idea listed in the verses above, mainly Deuteronomy 33:2.

While it is true that all other canons include the books of the protestant canon and the protestant canon contains a few books not referenced in the New Testament, a criteria must be established for books not referenced in the New Testament. All of the apocryphal books never make a claim to divine inspiration or make a claim to divine authority. All the books of the protestant Old Testament DO either make a claim to divine inspiration or a claim to divine authority either explicitly such as "Thus saith the Lord", or implicitly such as the book of Esther when it provides authority for the celebration of the Jewish feast of Purim.

Only the protestant canon has all the books referenced in the New Testament and does not contain any books that do not make a claim to divine inspiration or authority.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-24-2012 2:57 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 48 of 76 (671306)
08-24-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by jar
08-24-2012 8:59 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
jar writes:

In addition to the issues pointed out in the two replies above, why must a true Canon contain the New Testament?

The Law and the Prophets was good enough for Jesus, must man add more?

Second, what the hell is the "True" New Testament?

Where's 1 Enoch?

Who decides what is the "True" New Testament?

By Orthodox Church do you mean the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Samaritan Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church?

The topic is the superiority of the protestant canon. You are disputing the very idea of a canon. You cannot make an argument against the superiority of the protestant canon if you don't even acknowledge the legitimitacy of the idea of a canon in the first place.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 8:59 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 10:54 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
PaulK
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Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 49 of 76 (671312)
08-24-2012 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:08 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
quote:

Jude is not referencing the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch was not around when Jude was written.

1 Enoch is pre-Christian, so it certainly was around when Jude was written. And Jude explicitly cites the words as coming from Enoch (the man), which I do not think you will find in Deuteronomy.

quote:

While it is true that all other canons include the books of the protestant canon and the protestant canon contains a few books not referenced in the New Testament, a criteria must be established for books not referenced in the New Testament. All of the apocryphal books never make a claim to divine inspiration or make a claim to divine authority. All the books of the protestant Old Testament DO either make a claim to divine inspiration or a claim to divine authority either explicitly such as "Thus saith the Lord", or implicitly such as the book of Esther when it provides authority for the celebration of the Jewish feast of Purim.

I think you will find that many books in your canon do not make such a claim. How about Luke, for instance ? Or Jude, since it's come up here and it is very short. (And even where the books do make such a claim it only covers a part of them).

And you still haven't addressed the validity of your criterion for the NT books. What do you mean by the "orthodox" Church, and why is its choices superior to any alternatives ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:08 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11176
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 50 of 76 (671318)
08-24-2012 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:08 AM


Jude *quotes* Enoch
Jude is not referencing the book of Enoch.

Um, Jude directly quotes Enoch.

I don't know which version of the Bible you'd have me quote from, I just use biblegateway.com and their default is the NIV. So that's what your getting until you specify otherwise:

quote:
Jude 1

14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones
15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Jude says that Enoch said it and there's even quotation marks. Here's the line from Enoch:

quote:
Enoch 1

9. And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of {His}holy ones
To execute judgement upon all,
And to destroy {all} the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh
Of all the works {of their ungodliness} which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners {have spoken} against Him.
source


Jude is referencing a common theme throughout the Old Testament and is more likely referencing Deuteronomy 33:2

Here's that one:

quote:
Deuteronomy 33

1 This is the blessing that Moses the man of God pronounced on the Israelites before his death.
2 He said:
The Lord came from Sinai
and dawned over them from Seir;
he shone forth from Mount Paran.
He came with {a} myriads of holy ones
from the south, from his mountain slopes.


So yeah, its talking about a lot of holy ones, but the line from Jude lines up exactly as a quote from Enoch.

The book of Enoch was not around when Jude was written.

Not according to wiki:

quote:
It is generally accepted by scholars that the author of the Epistle of Jude was familiar with the Book of Enoch and was influenced by it in thought and diction.

.

the protestant canon

Which version of the Bible are referring to as this? There's this chart on wiki that explains the differences, but if I go to pick a "version" of the Bible from a dropdown list on biblegateway, which one is the "protestant" one?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:08 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-24-2012 11:58 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28434
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 51 of 76 (671320)
08-24-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:12 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
Nonsense.

I don't dispute the legitimacy of any Canon.

Each Canon is legitimate since each Canon was created by an authorized Committee of Canon.

The issue is why the protestant canon is superior.

Why must a true Canon contain the New Testament?

Second, what the hell is the "True" New Testament?

Where's 1 Enoch?

Who decides what is the "True" New Testament?

By Orthodox Church do you mean the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, the Samaritan Orthodox Church or the Roman Catholic Church?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:12 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
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Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 52 of 76 (671325)
08-24-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:08 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
Jude is not referencing the book of Enoch. The book of Enoch was not around when Jude was written.

You could not possibly have made any attempt to verify this before stating it as fact. All of the book of Enoch predates the birth and ministry period of Jesus Christ. Most of the book dates from centuries before Jesus was born. Jude dates from some time after the crucifixion and resurrection.

Jude is referencing a common theme throughout the Old Testament and is more likely referencing Deuteronomy 33:

Could you provide a source for this claim. I don't believe you checked this either. Let's look at the relevant passages from each.

KJV Jude 1:14-15

quote:

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying , Behold , the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed , and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Enoch 1:9

quote:
9. And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of ⌈His⌉ holy ones
To execute judgement upon all, And to destroy ⌈all⌉ the ungodly: And to convict all flesh Of all the works ⌈of their ungodliness⌉ which they have ungodly committed, And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners ⌈have spoken⌉ against Him.

I'd suggest that Jude was quoting from Enoch and not merely citing a common theme. The other Biblical verses you cite don't contain anything resembling the wording used in Enoch and Jude. I've used your main source below:

Deuteronomy 33:2

quote:
And he said , The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Wow. No resemblance at all.

All the books of the protestant Old Testament DO either make a claim to divine inspiration or a claim to divine authority either explicitly such as "Thus saith the Lord",

Authorship and inspiration are not the same thing. And your evidence of claims of authorship is sorely lacking.

Yes, there are quotes written in the first person, but that's a far cry from saying that God wrote the quotes or the description of events surrounding the quotes. You'll find far more references to God in third person than first person.

implicitly such as the book of Esther when it provides authority for the celebration of the Jewish feast of Purim.

Seriously? This is the type of claim of inspiration that makes you believe that every word of the book of Esther is dictated by God?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:08 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 53 of 76 (671335)
08-24-2012 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye
08-24-2012 10:46 AM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
Protestants never seem to stop amazing me with everything they think they know, compared to the reality of the situation. I eagerly await an answer to yet another "house of cards" scenario like this one.

Pax vobiscum

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2012 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-24-2012 12:11 PM Artemis Entreri has acknowledged this reply
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11176
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 54 of 76 (671337)
08-24-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Artemis Entreri
08-24-2012 11:58 AM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
Protestants never seem to stop amazing me with everything they think they know, compared to the reality of the situation. I eagerly await an answer to yet another "house of cards" scenario like this one.

Its crazy how convoluted and complicated the protestant explanations for obvious errors and falsehoods can get. The mental gauntlet they have to get through is amazing. And it turns the faith in to this complicated puzzle that has to have all these disarranged parts put into a specific and precise arrangement and then: 'Viola! Look everything is so perfect!'

Evangelical Protestant Christianty is God's Rubik's Cube.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : clarification

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28434
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 55 of 76 (671339)
08-24-2012 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Artemis Entreri
08-24-2012 11:58 AM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
It's not all Protestants.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-24-2012 11:58 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2012 2:06 PM jar has responded

  
ringo
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Posts: 12820
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 56 of 76 (671342)
08-24-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:08 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
foreveryoung writes:

All the books of the protestant Old Testament DO either make a claim to divine inspiration or a claim to divine authority either explicitly such as "Thus saith the Lord", or implicitly such as the book of Esther when it provides authority for the celebration of the Jewish feast of Purim.


How is a claim like "Thus saith the Lord" different from a statement like "Long John Silver said"?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by foreveryoung, posted 08-24-2012 10:08 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
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Member Rating: 3.9


Message 57 of 76 (671352)
08-24-2012 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by foreveryoung
08-24-2012 10:08 AM


Re: What is a Canon?
Only the protestant canon has all the books referenced in the New Testament ...

I've shown you the evidence. It's not really deniable. Every other Christian canon of the OT includes all the books in the Protestant canon. They've got every single one of the books in the Protestant canon. There is not a single OT book in the Protestant canon that is not also in every other Christian canon.

So they've got all the books. The argument you need to make as a Protestant is that they've got too many books. But you can't make an argument that Protestants are special because they've got all the genuinely inspired OT books, because all the other Christians have got these books too.

I'm not going to argue with you about anything else unless you admit that. Also, I don't think anyone else on these forums should try to argue anything with you about anything until you can admit that, because until you can admit that a subset is always a subset of its superset, then I don't see how anyone can try to argue with you as though you were a rational person.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 28434
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 58 of 76 (671355)
08-24-2012 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dr Adequate
08-24-2012 1:22 PM


Re: What is a Canon?
There is the Samaritan Orthodox Canon that contains only those books that had been canonized at the time Jesus lived. They consider everything else as extra-canonical.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-24-2012 1:22 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1580 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 59 of 76 (671558)
08-27-2012 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
08-24-2012 12:27 PM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
semantics much?

of course not all of them. the originals who broke with the catholic communion (Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.), the post-catholics are NOT the ones I was referring too.

I am mostly talking about the "i read the bible all by myself and now I am going to create my own faith" christians. I think "most" evangelical protestants fall into this category (Baptists, Pentacostals, 7th day adventist); aka the American Christians. you know the sort of crazy that isn't-allowed-in-Europe-Christians.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 08-24-2012 12:27 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2012 2:20 PM Artemis Entreri has responded
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 Message 62 by Phat, posted 08-27-2012 3:39 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9324
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 60 of 76 (671561)
08-27-2012 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Artemis Entreri
08-27-2012 2:06 PM


Re: Jude *quotes* Enoch
semantics much?

the originals who broke with the catholic communion (Lutherans, Anglicans, etc.), the post-catholics are NOT the ones I was referring too.

I'm a bit puzzled, and perhaps it is because I am not parsing your sentence above properly.

You seem to be using the term "Protestant" to refer to a class of worshippers that excludes Lutherans. Such a usage would be ... non-standard, and it should not be too terribly surprising if someone did not pick up on that usage without some help.

OFF TOPIC
AdminPD

Edited by NoNukes, : Bad use of the word "to". I'm glad I didn't do any grammar flames in my post.

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own. George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2012 2:06 PM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Artemis Entreri, posted 08-27-2012 4:23 PM NoNukes has responded

    
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