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Author Topic:   Superiority of the 'Protestant Canon'?
AdminPD
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Message 76 of 146 (673119)
09-14-2012 5:04 AM


Warning!
Any current participant who makes an off topic post in this thread from this point forward will be suspended for 48 hours.

You have been duly warned.

Thanks
AdminPD

Please do not respond to this post.


  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


(1)
Message 77 of 146 (811677)
06-10-2017 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
03-11-2012 4:16 PM


Protestant Canon made in 1850's
In Whether to leave this forum or not, foreveryoung and jar have been going back and forth regarding the various biblical canons. In Message 108, foreveryoung stated:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
foreveryoung in Message 108 in Whether to leave this forum or not:
There is a good reason to believe the current protestant cannon is supernaturally inspired.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This thread will be for foreveryoung and others who share his view on the superiority of the 'protestant canon' (or any canon, for that matter) to defend their position and present evidence in its favor. I'd like to see the discussion follow along these lines:

First, those arguing for superiority of one of the canons will have to define that canon. This will mean listing all of the books that make up the canon as well as the versions of those books where significant variations exist.

Second, these folk will have to define and defend the criteria behind labeling one canon as superior or better than another. What is it about a canon that would make it superior? For example, foreveryoung seems to think that supernatural inspiration is a criterion for a superior canon.

Finally, they will have to show that these criteria are all met in the canon they hold as superior.

*****************************************

The Protestant Canon was agreed upon by church people in the mid 1800's, and is acceptable, even though it threw out the more spiritual and great books of the Apocypha...namely Tobit and Esdras.... and a few others.

They elevated Pauls writings to sacrosanct when in fact Pauls writings were never meant as word for word prophecy or RED LETTER, ..THus saith the Lord prophecy.

But His writings help church leaders keep their flocks in control and obedient to them, and paying their tithes for the church leaders homes and frills etc etc...

Pauls protestant writings keep the congregations dumb and submissive and believeing in group faith and confined mainly to working for money rather than obeying the Lord.

The Lord judges people according to what they hear from HIM and do or not do, rather than how many books they read, and judges them according to their works or lack of good loving works.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 03-11-2012 4:16 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 2:09 PM Davidjay has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9581
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 78 of 146 (811686)
06-10-2017 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Davidjay
06-10-2017 11:54 AM


Re: Protestant Canon made in 1850's
Davidjay writes:

Consequently any real discussion, would have to differentiate between Jesus doctrine and lifestyle and religion, compared to the false con job and marketing job of the damnable perverted church system. The same church system that persecuted Jesus, persecutes real Christians today.

jar and I discussed a lot of this both in this current topic and in The God That Paul Marketed Over Time

You may find the conversation interesting.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 11:54 AM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 11:35 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 79 of 146 (811711)
06-10-2017 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
06-10-2017 2:09 PM


Re: Protestant Canon made in 1850's
Hmmm... that might be interesting......

Because I was leary of mentioning Paul, because he definitely was out of tune, and not en-cathedral or prophetic when speaking and writing.... sometimes he was accurate but most of the time he did market the church system so that it would be acceptable for the masses rather than for the obedient and the few that would follow all the way....

OK, I shall stay on a little longer to blast the damnable church system that Paul created. Jesus created the true church, Paul created the mixed multitudes and the compromising backsliding disobedient false church with their wolves and con men for leaders.

Interesting

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 06-10-2017 2:09 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 11:51 PM Davidjay has responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 80 of 146 (811715)
06-10-2017 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Davidjay
06-10-2017 11:35 PM


Re: Sexuality and the false church system of Paul
Sadly I and we are banned from talking about sexuality because that is one of the main ways the false damnable church systems rules over women, and hence over men.... to make them whimps and under their control.

Paul despised women and was afraid of women, so put down women, and allowed them in, only if they followed certain nonsexual rules..... and kept quiet and submissive and obedient to their husbands...etc..

Jesus set the captives free, Paul tried to enslave them and make up new rules for them that Jesus never stated and never wanted. Paul was into self righetosuness and laws, whereas Jesus created love and wanted love and liberty to rule us.

And from then on the false church system has been fighting the Lords freed people ever onward...and persecuting them just as their fsathers killed and hounded all the prophets before the Lord and before the early true Christian church.

But sadly we are not allowed to discuss sexuality..... as the bounds for this topic are as strict as strict can get.... and new topics can not be proposed.... or allowed...

Or can they ?


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 11:35 PM Davidjay has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Davidjay, posted 06-11-2017 9:56 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Davidjay 
Suspended Member
Posts: 1026
From: B.C Canada
Joined: 11-05-2004


Message 81 of 146 (811732)
06-11-2017 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Davidjay
06-10-2017 11:51 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
OK, lets start the confirmations against Paul, so as to help READERS discern between Jesus words and Pauls contradictory words.

For this is one reason why Christians get confused and dont study their bibles and hence live out their bibles. Its contradictory when Pauls words are deemedequal to Jesus words.
Jesus said His literal words were scriptures and that His prophets words were scripture..... (Prophets state THUS SAITH THE LORD, Paul did not write as a prophet, Paul did not say THUS SAITH THE LORD)

**************************

Here we go, until I get banned ..... Im negotiating now a six month probation before I return to see if things have changed.. IE ecv will be on a six month probation until I return ......

**********************************

Christ's commands are absolute and need to be understood and carried out. His ultimate command is that we love each other.

Paul's and any other writer in the Bible or elsewhere words are opinions based on their personal point of view. Although many
like Paul wanted us to believe that they hold the same authority that Christ did.

Christ is the expert and His command is that we love one another. If you, me, Paul or anyone else departs from this command we
delay and interfere with the process that we who confess and believe in Him are going through.

I love Paul, I just don't think he is Christ. And I know he wasn't an eye witness to a resurrected Christ. Like the rest of us he is
full of ideas and concepts about a lot of different issues.

It concerns me that Paul's words are thought to be equivelent to Christ's or the actual apostles. I think he was the first of many
who have claimed some special revelation from Christ that only they can teach us. A relationship with Christ should force us to
examine ourselves and seek His mercy at the same time as we give His mercy and forgiveness to others. Each of us has an
individual responsibility to know and be known by Christ.

For some reason followers of Paulistic teachings are more concerned with the behavior of others than they are with their own
behavior. Jesus command is as simple as it is impossible. Love Him with our whole being and love our neighbor as ourselves.
Even if our neighbor is someone we think of as an ememy, a homosexual, a liberal, an adulterer. The obstacle to loving others is
the same obstacle it has always been, ourselves.

Jesus cured this dilemma Paul exacerbates it.

Unlike Christ, Paul's words are subject to debate. Unfortunately Paul is not here for us to debate him. I would like to debate
James and his views on slavery and of asking a woman to remain in an abusive relationship. Instead of being able to debate these
men we debate amongst ourselves.

This debate has destroyed the essence of Christ's command and has made the command to love a lesser issue. This to me is
paramount to rejection of Christ. While the world longs for love we promote and argue about foolishness, that destroys our
relationship with Christ and others.

Written by Quincy (not me David Jay Jordan)
He can be written to at .... email

Mine will follow later...

Edited by Davidjay, : No reason given.


Thanks to the webmasters HERE for allowing me to defeat atheists and evolutionists HERE, and show they have no math, no science backing them up and that they are totally dependant on semantics and luck and chance as their only support for their religion. Thanks again...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Davidjay, posted 06-10-2017 11:51 PM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 3:15 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 25851
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 82 of 146 (811764)
06-12-2017 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Davidjay
06-11-2017 9:56 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
You destroy the usefulness of the Bible with your rejection of Paul. Jesus called and commissioned Paul, his writings are no less authoritative than the words of Jesus Himself. In fact ALL the Bible should be understood to be Jesus' own work, no part left out.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Davidjay, posted 06-11-2017 9:56 AM Davidjay has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 06-12-2017 5:29 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 83 of 146 (811846)
06-12-2017 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
06-12-2017 3:15 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Jesus called and commissioned Paul, his writings are no less authoritative than the words of Jesus Himself.

The Bible deifying can find a tough spot here. Paul's testimony is that of a human with human frailty and human subjection to error. His recollection, by his own admission, falters. Yet somehow Paul's writings, with all of their errors are the words of God himself. Well, at least if we let you tell it.

Was Paul given his commission and direction on the road to Damascus, or not until he reached the city? Did the people with him on the road hear Jesus, or did they see the light and hear nothing? Is there one great commandment or two? Is Paul actually your Father in Christ through the Gospel or is there only one Father?

In the past, you have argued that such discrepancies are evidence that the Bible accounts are correct. Yes, real people telling stories get some details wrong. But if we grant that, we have to grant that Paul's testimonies are that of a human being doing his mortal best to understand and follow Jesus. Paul gets so much right, but he is not Jesus and the text reflects that in a number of places.

You and Davidjay may represent the extremes of opinion held by Christians on this topic. Most likely neither of you are correct. If, in fact, there are places were the words of Jesus differ from what Paul says about something important, the resolution should be an easy one for most Christians.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 3:15 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:51 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25851
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 84 of 146 (811848)
06-12-2017 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by NoNukes
06-12-2017 5:29 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Every single writer of the Bible was "human and subject to human error," all the apostles of Christ, all the prophets, Moses, all of them. So what? Their writings are considered to be the word of God, and so are Paul's. They wrote "as moved by the Holy Spirit," every one of them, and Paul as much as any of them.

ABE: Oh, and even to have Jesus' spoken words at all you need to trust those fallible human beings.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by NoNukes, posted 06-12-2017 5:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 06-12-2017 10:13 PM Faith has responded
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2017 12:20 AM Faith has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 85 of 146 (811861)
06-12-2017 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-12-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Faith writes:

ABE: Oh, and even to have Jesus' spoken words at all you need to trust those fallible human beings.

Actually Faith, no a thinking person does not need to trust those fallible human beings. Just as with all wisdom a thinking person will test the words to see if they are reasonable, logical, within the realm of reality and applicable at the current time, place and milieu.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 10:18 PM jar has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25851
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 146 (811862)
06-12-2017 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
06-12-2017 10:13 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
The writings included in the canon were determined by the early church leaders and others down the centuries to be authored by the Holy Spirit. No thinking person who has the Holy Spirit needs any further test.

ABE: The "scholars" who have been raising so many questions about the authenticity of the Bible over the last couple of centuries are phonies who don't have the Holy Spirit. These things are spiritually discerned, mere intellect -- which is fallen intellect -- can't discern them.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 06-12-2017 10:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by jar, posted 06-13-2017 7:17 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 94 by Phat, posted 06-13-2017 7:30 PM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 146 (811865)
06-13-2017 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Faith
06-12-2017 5:51 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
They wrote "as moved by the Holy Spirit," every one of them, and Paul as much as any of them.

And yet they do not always agree. I don't have any issue with your answer, but nothing you say even challenges what I posted.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 5:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 12:39 AM NoNukes has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 25851
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 146 (811868)
06-13-2017 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by NoNukes
06-13-2017 12:20 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
I'm not the slightest bit interested in your opinion about these things.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2017 12:20 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by NoNukes, posted 06-13-2017 2:18 AM Faith has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 89 of 146 (811872)
06-13-2017 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Faith
06-13-2017 12:39 AM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
I'm not the slightest bit interested in your opinion about these things.

Lol! Why are you posting responses just to tell me that you are not interested in my opinion?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. Thomas Jefferson

Not really, it is a theory that is imposed on nature so consistently that you think you are observing it. -- Faith

Some of us are worried about just how much damage he will do in his last couple of weeks as president, to make it easier for the NY Times and Washington post to try to destroy Trump's presidency. -- marc9000


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 12:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Faith, posted 06-13-2017 10:27 AM NoNukes has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 90 of 146 (811885)
06-13-2017 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
06-12-2017 10:18 PM


Re: Quincey writes, Follow Jesus not Paul
Faith writes:

The writings included in the canon were determined by the early church leaders and others down the centuries to be authored by the Holy Spirit. No thinking person who has the Holy Spirit needs any further test.

That is simply demonstrably not true Faith. The proof that refutes your assertion is that there is not one Canon but many and the ONLY books that are common to ALL of the Christian Canons are the first five books of the Old Testament.

Faith writes:

ABE: The "scholars" who have been raising so many questions about the authenticity of the Bible over the last couple of centuries are phonies who don't have the Holy Spirit. These things are spiritually discerned, mere intellect -- which is fallen intellect -- can't discern them.

Yawn.

Yes Faith we know you believe that but reality shows that there is no Biblical justification for the Fall or any Fallen intellect; those are all simply stuff made up by apologists.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 06-12-2017 10:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
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