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Member (Idle past 2956 days) Posts: 706 From: Joliet, il, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Queen Elizabeth and the U.K.? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
As a secularist I obviously have some problems with the pseudo-theocracy that is a constitutional monarchy. On the other hand, I like the Queen. Not the title per se, but the person. I can not think of a more appropriate person to fill her position.
However, ridding the UK of monarchy is probably the last step of secularisation. Right now, trying to get rid of the Queen is from a practical standpoint impossible - it's a constitutional quagmire of problems I'm lead to believe. I think it's probably best to start with the real intrusion of religion in public policy (mandatory worship at school, bishops with legislative powers, faith schools) and do so soon. For the process of dissolving the monarchy, I'd rather we take that slowly, it may require for us to commit to a written constitution (trying to rejig our present 'constitution' is probably an unworkable proposition).
What is the rationale for Elizabeth II to be accorded the benefits and acolades she receives from her subjects.? She's the freakin' Queen, that's the rationale
Are the financial gifts she receives from her subjects worth the cost? I believe the land that the Royal family own and maintain on behalf of the country makes more money than their upkeep costs. Added to what tourist 'dollars' she brings in, and I'm fairly sure she's worth the small cost that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Then again, I'm not certain on that.
Does she have any Queenly Powers? Any constitutional Powers? In a constitutional monarchy, the two are somewhat the same. She signs bills to make them laws, heads up the justice system and imprisons people, appoints prime ministers, ambassadors, other ministers as well I believe; She calls for elections too, I think. Most of this is symbolic of course, she doesn't make any decisions that have not been decided already. She does have the power to dismiss the prime minister, but this would only be exercised if the prime minister loses a 'no confidence' vote and does not resign, and it's never actually been tested in modern times.
Is she just a symbol of the old forgotten and destroyed Empire? We had a monarchy before we had an empire, the monarch is not necessarily an Emperor/Empress. I suppose, on the other hand, it should also be noted that she is the head of state of 16 countries.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Does she have any veto power over bills that are submitted for her signature? Yes.
If not what happens if as a matter of principle she refuses to sign a bill? It hasn't happened for 300 years. It would be a crisis that will probably result in the monarchy being stripped of those powers.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Actually, there was a group of people who got rid of the English monarchy and established a decent constitutional democracy back in the 1770's. Can't think of the country of the top of my head, but a google search should find it for you. On the downside, I believe it ignited a bit of a war...
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined:
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If I remember rightly, Queen Anne once refused to sign some bill about soldiers' uniforms just to prove that she could, and that's the last time it happened. From wiki quote: There was something that came up in ... I forget ... Belgium, or the Netherlands ... the Queen of whichever country it was had some sort of conscientious objection to signing a bill about abortion, so it was seriously proposed that she could abdicate in favor of her son, who would sign it and then abdicate right back in favor of her. I don't know how the situation was eventually resolved.
again, from wiki quote:
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Is there a written law that provides for the powers of the Monarchy to be regulated by the legislatures, English constitutional law is a mess of case history, treaties, acts and so on and so forth. There is the Magna Carta, of course, which sets the precedent for limiting the powers of the Monarchy. As a result of the looseness of the constitution, parliamentary sovereignty essentially means that Parliament has the power to limit or abolish the monarchy. This actually happened once: in 1649 courtesy of Oliver Cromwell, whose statue stands outside the houses of Parliament.
would there have to be some type of referendum to modify or abolish the powers of the Monarchy? I don't know of any law that requires a referendum for modifying the powers of the monarchy. Indeed, the results of referrendums in the UK are not even legally binding. However, they are usually held when constitutional changes are proposed, so I would expect that the abolishment of the monarchy would only go forwards if there was a positive response from a referrendum.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
And just what exactly ever made you a democracy? Do please cite just exactly what documentation made you a "democracy". The Magna Carta is a document that creates a formal parliament of a couple of dozen Barons who together can overrule the Monarch. Over the next couple of centuries the council/parliament expanded to include more people. There were elections during this time, but the voters were all elites (wealthy landholders). Over time, more and more people became empowered to vote. Most of the expansion of voting rights occurred in the 19th Century, inspired by such things as the People's Charter of 1838. There were a couple of important constitutional changes in the 18th Century too.
The question returns to that of: just what exactly legitimizes your government? The general answer would probably be 'the consent of the governed'.
OK, Brits, what justifies what you do? Many documents and court decisions, treaties etc. Sorry it's not all in one convenient place, but we have this thing here in Europe called history
You want to claim to be a democracy? Yes. A representational democracy to be exact.
On what basis? On the basis that we actually do elect representatives who then go to Parliament and from there, leglislate.
We "Yanks" are able to make that claim and have a solid basis for that claim. What exactly is the basis for your claim? The basis, other than the simple fact that we do in fact elect representatives, is a thousand years worth of jurisprudence, treaties, acts, notable philosophical works, bills and so on.
Which returns us to the question of why the British peoples' vote should matter. Whether the American peoples' vote should matter is well defined by the US Constitution. So just what exactly determines what the British peoples' vote should mean? I can't locate the exact document that specifically gives me the right to vote, but it was probably written in the 1800s. Maybe it was the Reform Act 1867, maybe it was the Great Reform of 1832. I'm no British Constitutional expert. I know, I know, not having a centralised constitution that spells it all out is a bit confusing and for a Yank - maybe even disorientating. But that's the way we roll here. As Dr. A mentioned earlier: It is not permitted for MPs to even resign so they have to accept a post that would disqualify them from being MPs instead. It's not a top-down designed system, it's a bottom up, evolved system and it is messy, convoluted and excessively complex. If something as straightforward as resigning from office is so unnecessarily convoluted - you can hardly expect the basis upon which the democracy is founded to be straightforward!
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
it is the united KINGDOM right? It would be a silly name without a monarch. It would be silly to call France, The Kingdom of France, as it used to be called. Now they call it the French Republic. So, assuming it stays united, we may change the name to the United Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UR doesn't flow as easily from the mouth as UK though, which is a shame.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
So maybe we could instead select a "national treasure" non-political figure to be a our head of state for an extended period. I would vote for Stephen Fry
2nd Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland, Stephen Fry. It has a certain ring to it
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
But then again I'm not keen on separate elections for this post either. That does make selection rather difficult. Unless hereditary "selection" remains in place. We already manage to select Lords and judges without voting them in. Though there are reforms being bandied about to make it more democratic. Selection can be done in any number of ways. It could be done on the mutual agreement of Parliament. There could be an independent committee. Or maybe some exceptional quality like making the head of state the person whose peer reviewed work has the biggest impact factor.
All in this thread seem to agree that having a head of state that isn't the political leader of the day is a good thing. The real question is, should the head of state be a lifelong position determined by birth? I can think of only one good reason why it should: A lifelong duty means one can get rather good at it. But it's hardly a guarantee of sufficient competence.
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