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Author Topic:   Queen Elizabeth and the U.K.?
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 18 of 102 (657167)
03-26-2012 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by shadow71
03-25-2012 7:49 PM


Long live the queen
As a secularist I obviously have some problems with the pseudo-theocracy that is a constitutional monarchy. On the other hand, I like the Queen. Not the title per se, but the person. I can not think of a more appropriate person to fill her position.
However, ridding the UK of monarchy is probably the last step of secularisation. Right now, trying to get rid of the Queen is from a practical standpoint impossible - it's a constitutional quagmire of problems I'm lead to believe. I think it's probably best to start with the real intrusion of religion in public policy (mandatory worship at school, bishops with legislative powers, faith schools) and do so soon. For the process of dissolving the monarchy, I'd rather we take that slowly, it may require for us to commit to a written constitution (trying to rejig our present 'constitution' is probably an unworkable proposition).
What is the rationale for Elizabeth II to be accorded the benefits and acolades she receives from her subjects.?
She's the freakin' Queen, that's the rationale
Are the financial gifts she receives from her subjects worth the cost?
I believe the land that the Royal family own and maintain on behalf of the country makes more money than their upkeep costs. Added to what tourist 'dollars' she brings in, and I'm fairly sure she's worth the small cost that was mentioned earlier in the thread. Then again, I'm not certain on that.
Does she have any Queenly Powers?
Any constitutional Powers?
In a constitutional monarchy, the two are somewhat the same. She signs bills to make them laws, heads up the justice system and imprisons people, appoints prime ministers, ambassadors, other ministers as well I believe; She calls for elections too, I think.
Most of this is symbolic of course, she doesn't make any decisions that have not been decided already.
She does have the power to dismiss the prime minister, but this would only be exercised if the prime minister loses a 'no confidence' vote and does not resign, and it's never actually been tested in modern times.
Is she just a symbol of the old forgotten and destroyed Empire?
We had a monarchy before we had an empire, the monarch is not necessarily an Emperor/Empress.
I suppose, on the other hand, it should also be noted that she is the head of state of 16 countries.

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 Message 1 by shadow71, posted 03-25-2012 7:49 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by shadow71, posted 03-26-2012 2:07 PM Modulous has replied
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 25 of 102 (657177)
03-26-2012 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by shadow71
03-26-2012 2:07 PM


Re: Long live the queen
Does she have any veto power over bills that are submitted for her signature?
Yes.
If not what happens if as a matter of principle she refuses to sign a bill?
It hasn't happened for 300 years. It would be a crisis that will probably result in the monarchy being stripped of those powers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by shadow71, posted 03-26-2012 2:07 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by shadow71, posted 03-26-2012 4:26 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 26 of 102 (657179)
03-26-2012 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Taq
03-26-2012 2:11 PM


Re: Long live the queen
Actually, there was a group of people who got rid of the English monarchy and established a decent constitutional democracy back in the 1770's. Can't think of the country of the top of my head, but a google search should find it for you.
On the downside, I believe it ignited a bit of a war...

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 30 of 102 (657186)
03-26-2012 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dr Adequate
03-26-2012 2:27 PM


Re: Long live the queen
If I remember rightly, Queen Anne once refused to sign some bill about soldiers' uniforms just to prove that she could, and that's the last time it happened.
From wiki
quote:
The Act of Settlement 1701, passed by the English Parliament, applied in England and Ireland but not Scotland, where a strong minority wished to preserve the Stuart dynasty and its right of inheritance to the throne.[92] In 1703, the Estates of Scotland responded to the Settlement by passing the Act of Security, which gave the Estates the power, if the Queen had no further children, to choose the next Scottish monarch from among the descendants of the royal line of Scotland.[93] The individual chosen by the Estates could not be the same person who came to the English throne, unless England granted full freedom of trade to Scottish merchants.[94] At first, Anne withheld royal assent to the act, but granted it the following year when the Estates threatened to withdraw Scottish support for England's wars
There was something that came up in ... I forget ... Belgium, or the Netherlands ... the Queen of whichever country it was had some sort of conscientious objection to signing a bill about abortion, so it was seriously proposed that she could abdicate in favor of her son, who would sign it and then abdicate right back in favor of her. I don't know how the situation was eventually resolved.
again, from wiki
quote:
In 1990, when a law submitted by Roger Lallemand and Lucienne Herman-Michielsens, liberalising Belgium's abortion laws, was approved by Parliament, he refused to give Royal Assent to the bill. This was unprecedented; although Baudoin was nominally Belgium's chief executive, Royal Assent has long been a formality (as is the case in most constitutional and popular monarchies). However, due to his religious convictions, Baudouin asked the Government to declare him temporarily unable to reign so that he could avoid signing the measure into law.[4] The Government under Wilfried Martens complied with his request on 4 April 1990. According to the provisions of the Belgian Constitution, in the event the King is temporarily unable to reign, the Government as a whole fulfills the role of Head of State. All members of the Government signed the bill, and the next day (5 April 1990) the Government declared that Baudouin was capable of reigning again.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 37 of 102 (657201)
03-26-2012 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by shadow71
03-26-2012 4:26 PM


Re: Long live the queen
Is there a written law that provides for the powers of the Monarchy to be regulated by the legislatures,
English constitutional law is a mess of case history, treaties, acts and so on and so forth. There is the Magna Carta, of course, which sets the precedent for limiting the powers of the Monarchy.
As a result of the looseness of the constitution, parliamentary sovereignty essentially means that Parliament has the power to limit or abolish the monarchy. This actually happened once: in 1649 courtesy of Oliver Cromwell, whose statue stands outside the houses of Parliament.
would there have to be some type of referendum to modify or abolish the powers of the Monarchy?
I don't know of any law that requires a referendum for modifying the powers of the monarchy. Indeed, the results of referrendums in the UK are not even legally binding. However, they are usually held when constitutional changes are proposed, so I would expect that the abolishment of the monarchy would only go forwards if there was a positive response from a referrendum.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 53 of 102 (657299)
03-27-2012 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by dwise1
03-27-2012 3:57 AM


You've got to fight, for the right
And just what exactly ever made you a democracy? Do please cite just exactly what documentation made you a "democracy".
The Magna Carta is a document that creates a formal parliament of a couple of dozen Barons who together can overrule the Monarch. Over the next couple of centuries the council/parliament expanded to include more people.
There were elections during this time, but the voters were all elites (wealthy landholders). Over time, more and more people became empowered to vote. Most of the expansion of voting rights occurred in the 19th Century, inspired by such things as the People's Charter of 1838. There were a couple of important constitutional changes in the 18th Century too.
The question returns to that of: just what exactly legitimizes your government?
The general answer would probably be 'the consent of the governed'.
OK, Brits, what justifies what you do?
Many documents and court decisions, treaties etc. Sorry it's not all in one convenient place, but we have this thing here in Europe called history
You want to claim to be a democracy?
Yes. A representational democracy to be exact.
On what basis?
On the basis that we actually do elect representatives who then go to Parliament and from there, leglislate.
We "Yanks" are able to make that claim and have a solid basis for that claim. What exactly is the basis for your claim?
The basis, other than the simple fact that we do in fact elect representatives, is a thousand years worth of jurisprudence, treaties, acts, notable philosophical works, bills and so on.
Which returns us to the question of why the British peoples' vote should matter. Whether the American peoples' vote should matter is well defined by the US Constitution. So just what exactly determines what the British peoples' vote should mean?
I can't locate the exact document that specifically gives me the right to vote, but it was probably written in the 1800s. Maybe it was the Reform Act 1867, maybe it was the Great Reform of 1832. I'm no British Constitutional expert.
I know, I know, not having a centralised constitution that spells it all out is a bit confusing and for a Yank - maybe even disorientating. But that's the way we roll here.
As Dr. A mentioned earlier: It is not permitted for MPs to even resign so they have to accept a post that would disqualify them from being MPs instead. It's not a top-down designed system, it's a bottom up, evolved system and it is messy, convoluted and excessively complex.
If something as straightforward as resigning from office is so unnecessarily convoluted - you can hardly expect the basis upon which the democracy is founded to be straightforward!

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 59 of 102 (657361)
03-27-2012 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Artemis Entreri
03-27-2012 4:17 PM


it is the united KINGDOM right?
It would be a silly name without a monarch.
It would be silly to call France, The Kingdom of France, as it used to be called. Now they call it the French Republic.
So, assuming it stays united, we may change the name to the United Republic of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. UR doesn't flow as easily from the mouth as UK though, which is a shame.

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 70 of 102 (657398)
03-28-2012 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Straggler
03-28-2012 8:39 AM


So maybe we could instead select a "national treasure" non-political figure to be a our head of state for an extended period. I would vote for Stephen Fry
2nd Lord Protector of the Commonwealth of England, Scotland and Ireland, Stephen Fry. It has a certain ring to it

This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 89 of 102 (657584)
03-29-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Straggler
03-29-2012 7:42 AM


heads of state who ride and wrangle
But then again I'm not keen on separate elections for this post either.
That does make selection rather difficult. Unless hereditary "selection" remains in place.
We already manage to select Lords and judges without voting them in. Though there are reforms being bandied about to make it more democratic. Selection can be done in any number of ways. It could be done on the mutual agreement of Parliament. There could be an independent committee. Or maybe some exceptional quality like making the head of state the person whose peer reviewed work has the biggest impact factor.
All in this thread seem to agree that having a head of state that isn't the political leader of the day is a good thing.
The real question is, should the head of state be a lifelong position determined by birth? I can think of only one good reason why it should: A lifelong duty means one can get rather good at it. But it's hardly a guarantee of sufficient competence.

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