Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,824 Year: 4,081/9,624 Month: 952/974 Week: 279/286 Day: 40/46 Hour: 2/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Queen Elizabeth and the U.K.?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 8 of 102 (657120)
03-26-2012 5:43 AM


It's just one of our eccentric little foibles.
I think the reason we currently have a monarchy is because we quite like queenie. She's been with us for at least three generations and now has the status of 'national treasure.'
She doesn't get involved with politics and she's a major tourism asset.
But I'm a republican at heart - I don't like the idea of being a subject rather than a citizen and I hate the servility and genuflection in the antiquated class and grace and favour structures that lives behind it all.
I suspect we'll be having a really good look at how much of royalty we wish to keep when she either pops her clogs or hands over the reigns.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Son Goku, posted 03-26-2012 6:01 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 10 of 102 (657126)
03-26-2012 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Son Goku
03-26-2012 6:01 AM


Re: The next King.
Son Goku writes:
I think there'll be serious questions when Charles takes over. I mean it would be difficult to dislike Elizabeth, but Charles comes across as a bit silly, interventionist. How do people in the UK feel about him?
I think most people regard him as a crank and really wouldn't want him on the throne. It will throw everything into the air if he looks as though he's going to succeed.
(btw, when I say I'm a republican - I don't mean in the American sense )

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Son Goku, posted 03-26-2012 6:01 AM Son Goku has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by ramoss, posted 03-26-2012 12:25 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 19 of 102 (657168)
03-26-2012 1:02 PM


The monarchy is an amazing throwback in a modern Western democracy, although benign, it still has tendrils into our secular institutions. For example, all judges swear allegiance to the queen and to uphold HER laws. If you get prosecuted it's by the Crown Prosecution Service and the case is you versus the Queen.
(This does have the convenience of allowing the judiciary to be independent of government.)
Parliament is opened by her and her permission is asked to form a government - ludicrously she is asked if we can go to war using her forces - and so on.
It may be strange to those in the ex-colonies, but a lot of the commonwealth still see her as 'a good thing' - although some occasionally attempt a coup.
We really need to sweep all this crap away - albeit it with dignity and in a nicely British way.
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Straggler, posted 03-26-2012 1:12 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 21 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-26-2012 1:44 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 38 of 102 (657202)
03-26-2012 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by shadow71
03-26-2012 4:31 PM


Re: Long live the queen
nw writes:
When you say the monarchy ends, are you familar with the procedure for that process
Oh yes, lots of sharp pointy things and fire. Muskets have been used I believe, but that was on foreigners so would probably be deemed inapropriate. Some blood. And shouting, lots of shouting.
Then you need to find a guy from Lewes, East Sussex, to write some fine words. Preferrably using the word freedom rather too much.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by shadow71, posted 03-26-2012 4:31 PM shadow71 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-26-2012 5:26 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 80 by shadow71, posted 03-28-2012 1:46 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 43 of 102 (657251)
03-27-2012 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by dwise1
03-26-2012 10:53 PM


dwise1 writes:
What is the source for the legitimacy of the government in the UK? Isn't it the monarchy?
No, not at all. We're a democracy, the government's legitimacy comes from the people's vote. The monarchy is invisible in the process apart from its symbolic roles. (The queen is asked by the winning party to form a government and she formally opens parliament.)
But it's all pomp and circumstance, it could disapear in a heartbeat and nothing would change to the legitimacy of the government (unless the government tried to do it without asking us first.)
The fact is that most Brits admire and like the queen and enjoy all the ritual state occasions. For as long as the monarchy stay out of politics, I can't see much changing.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by dwise1, posted 03-26-2012 10:53 PM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by dwise1, posted 03-27-2012 3:57 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 11:57 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 47 of 102 (657259)
03-27-2012 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by dwise1
03-27-2012 3:57 AM


dwise1 writes:
And, uh, just exactly why should the people's vote ever matter?
Because we made the institutions that make it matter - the judiciary, law (common and statute), Parliamentary Sovereignty, universal suffrage, separation of powers, a constitution (yes we do have one ).
Do please cite just exactly what documentation made you a "democracy".
That'll be our constitution.
Constitution of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by dwise1, posted 03-27-2012 3:57 AM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 52 of 102 (657292)
03-27-2012 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dr Adequate
03-27-2012 11:57 AM


Dr A writes:
Not really. If a private citizen such as (say) Richard Branson, organized a national referendum, it could be as free and democratic as you like, but it would have no legitimacy, because it would be outside what dwise1 would call the chain of command. It would be like me going up to a colonel and telling him what to do: my instructions might be good and necessary ones, but he wouldn't obey them.
Morally the legitimacy of the government may be derived from democracy, but constitutionally the Queen does come into it.
Well if you want to go down that path, there is no authority except that which can taken and defended by force or by negotiation. Which is why every tin pot dictatorship has tight control of the armed forces and police.
Happily, we, the British people, have a deal with Parliament on who's allowed to make our rules, collect our taxes and provide our services. One day that might well be Richard Branson, but before that could happen we need a vote - via Parliament.
Queenie is indeed part of our constitution, but she no longer has the power or will to use any rights she has under it without Parliament, or in some cases I believe, just the government, first approving it.
We have a constitutional monarch in name only, I kind of like it that way, it has some advantages, but we need to modernise it when she's gone.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 11:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 2:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 60 of 102 (657370)
03-27-2012 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Dr Adequate
03-27-2012 3:59 PM


Dr A writes:
I'm just pointing out that under the current setup the legitimacy of the government is derived from the British constitution and not directly from the popular will. Now, the British constitution has a monarch in it.
The constitution is created by the governments (and monarchs) of previous times and amended by governments of modern times. These governments are elected by the people. If a government could be elected by popular vote on a manifesto of abolishing the monarchy, i would be abolished by popular will.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 3:59 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 63 of 102 (657386)
03-28-2012 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Boof
03-28-2012 12:26 AM


Re: Long live the queen
Boof writes:
Personally I find it bizarre that Australia has a Queen and that we need the Queen's representative to sign off on our legislation and appoint Ministers etc, whether or not that power is largely ceremonial. On the other hand It's hard for me to believe our politicians here could devise a better system without introducing additional bureaucracies so why bother changing?
That's about it. It's a quaint and picturesque hangover from earlier times that reminds us of our heritage and provide some benefits by way of tourism and sense of history.
Those of us who live in countries that have some actual history, quite enjoy the confusion it creates with foreigners that want things to be at least, well, tidier.
But the system actually works quite well and there's no real pressure to change it. Yet.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Boof, posted 03-28-2012 12:26 AM Boof has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 71 of 102 (657399)
03-28-2012 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by Straggler
03-28-2012 8:39 AM


Re: National Treasure
He'd then be a Stately Homo of England I suppose.....

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Straggler, posted 03-28-2012 8:39 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Straggler, posted 03-28-2012 9:05 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9510
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 82 of 102 (657437)
03-28-2012 1:50 PM


Try it yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUuRXchGfS0

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024