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Author Topic:   Athiest Manifesto
Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 11 of 54 (657181)
03-26-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
03-26-2012 8:12 AM


I've seen multiple attempts to "define" the atheist position. Unfortunately, "atheism" is nearly as broad a term as "theist."
The author here seems to assume that all atheists arrive at their non-belief after serious introspection and rational, logical examination of evidence. That's simply not so. Just because one rejects the various god hypotheses does not mean that such an individual rejects all unevidenced claims, for example.
The "manifesto" is an attempt to merge the concepts of rationalism and atheism, but for those who really have a commitment to the truth, this should not be done. Atheism simply encompasses far too many individual belief systems, linked only by the lack of a belief in deities.
It's entertaining that some atheists feel such a strong need to mirror religion that they can simultaneously define themselves as having no dogma while publishing their own version of the Apostles Creed.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 03-26-2012 8:12 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Heathen, posted 03-27-2012 2:37 AM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(2)
Message 27 of 54 (657296)
03-27-2012 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Heathen
03-27-2012 2:37 AM


I think it's more about being recognised as a section of society. A section who do not wish to give undue deference to religion, a section who does not wish to see crimes that would otherwise be considered hateful or bigoted being accepted as part of a persons faith. A section of society who do not wish to be absorbed into a default position of Christian, or CofE or whatever.
I don't think this article represents dogma, but rather an attempt to write down a series of principles which, the author thinks, represent a common thread in atheists/heathens or what ever you choose to be called.
It's far from perfect but, the idea that there is a part of society, not insignificant in number, who reject the "accepted" norms of religion is good, but as long as the members of that section of society just carry on, head down, allowing themselves to be counted as part of some other majority by virtue of their silence, the 'majority' are more likely to have a stronger, unopposed, mandate
There's certainly value in recognizing that a subset of the population does not believe what the rest of the population believes.
But this "manifesto" attempts to define a broadly general term with specifics that, frankly, just don't always apply.
Try to write the same "manifesto" for Theists.
1) Theists believe in god(s).
...I can't get more specific without falsely defining the beliefs of some subset of Theists. Do you see the problem here?
"Atheist" simply means "no belief in god(s)." That's it.
The "manifesto" bears the hallmark of an attempt to add filler to a definition that can be encompassed by a single line, merely four words. The author has sought to project his own brand of Atheism onto all Atheists, and in so doing has inaccurately described a large subset of non-believers.
The only reason I can think of for doing so is to attempt to make the "manifesto" more dramatic and meaningful...so that it becomes something like a creed from a major religion. The irony burns.
You cannot describe Atheists with specifics like "their first commitment is to the truth." It's just blatantly not so - and to prove it, all you need to do is find a single self-identified Atheist who honestly believes in something blatantly false, like "holistic medicine" or "autism is caused by vaccines." Hell, just look at Bill Maher, a popular Atheist who, as I recall, does not accept the Germ Theory of Disease (like Dark Onifre, he believes that poor nutrition is the primary cause of disease).
Some people just want to distinguish themselves from the crowd, and in their drive to not conform, they embrace a wide variety of what they see as minority positions, from 9/11 conspiracy theories to UFO abduction stories to psychic power to they hypothesis that the Egyptian pyramids were created by ancient aliens and that Stargate is in fact a documentary rather than entertaining science fiction. Some of those people will decide to be Atheists, too. It lets them continue their sense of belonging to an enlightened, persecuted minority.
We already have our own voices. I can say what I do and do not believe. I don't need some "manifesto" to spell it out for me. And just as much as I don;t want to be lumped in with Christians and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Mormons and New-Age idiots, I also don't want to be lumped in with idiot Atheists and Agnostics, or told what I believe by some fool who thinks "we" need a "manifesto."
Do you know what Creeds and manifestos are used for? They're used as reference points for dogma. When in doubt on what to believe, just look at the Creed again and it will tell you!
There is exactly one defining trait among Atheists: a lack of belief in any deities. That's our only binding position.
Adding anything else is just silly.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Heathen, posted 03-27-2012 2:37 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 03-27-2012 2:25 PM Rahvin has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 29 of 54 (657325)
03-27-2012 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
03-27-2012 2:25 PM


Baggini believes that there is such a group of people, more or less. He proposes the term 'heathen' to classify this group.
By using a "new" term, this bypasses basically all of my disagreements. I'm not necessarily a fan of the term itself (and I'd suggest that "heathen" may have even more negative connotation than "Atheist"), but he's no longer describing Atheists as a whole, but rather a subset of Atheists who share his specific views.
I still think it's somewhat entertaining to exclaim at one's rejection of dogma in a list of tenets adhered to by members of this group (ie, dogma) and its similarity to a religious creed, but that's rather beside the point.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 03-27-2012 2:25 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by 1.61803, posted 03-27-2012 3:51 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
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