Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 160 (8123 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-02-2014 12:18 AM
80 online now:
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Colbard
Happy Birthday: Omnivorous
Post Volume:
Total: 735,100 Year: 20,941/28,606 Month: 28/1,410 Week: 46/275 Day: 0/28 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2Next
Author Topic:   Athiest Manifesto
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 1 of 54 (657129)
03-26-2012 8:12 AM


Interesting piece (I thought)...

Main points:

1. Athiests are naturalists
2. First Commitment is to the truth
3. We respect Scence, Not Scientism
4. Reason is precious
5. Reject Dogma
6. Accept that Athieism will not have answers and are prepared for that
7. Are Secularists
8. Athiests can be religious(?)
9. Religion isn't all bad.
10. Are Critical of religion hen necessary

It's a fairly inoccuous piece but I'm interested to hear some folks views on this article... Are you in agreement? IS it a pile of Crap?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/...s-please-read-heathen-manifesto

Edited by Heathen, : formatting

Edited by Heathen, : link replaced with working one.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 03-26-2012 9:33 AM Heathen has responded
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 03-26-2012 1:46 PM Heathen has responded
 Message 11 by Rahvin, posted 03-26-2012 3:00 PM Heathen has responded
 Message 31 by Mr Jack, posted 03-27-2012 3:53 PM Heathen has responded
 Message 49 by Pressie, posted 03-29-2012 8:54 AM Heathen has not yet responded
 Message 53 by Modulous, posted 03-29-2012 1:58 PM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 54 (657136)
03-26-2012 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by nwr
03-26-2012 9:33 AM


Our notion of truth should itself be subject to examination and criticism. So it's a mistake to make such a commitment.

I don't see where he says it shouldn't. I think here he is saying that truth is paramount, rather than dogma, belief, wishful thinking etc.

What does that even mean? The reason that comes from creationists is often worthless

I think he agrees when he says Reason is precious, but also fragile.

That's yet another reason to wonder what Baggini takes "atheism" to mean

I took this to mean that Atheism doesn't provide big answers in the same way a belief system does. and that is accepted.

But you don't have to be an atheist to be a secularist.

I don't think that he suggested otherwise.

That one is straight from the Baggini lunatic asylum.

yeah, this struck me as a strange one. I guess it depends on what he defines "religious" as

Why should I be expected to make sweeping generalizations?

again I'm not sure where the article suggests you do this. Are you reading the same article?

But why does that require criticizing religion as a whole?

again, I think that's what he means by "when necessary"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by nwr, posted 03-26-2012 9:33 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by 1.61803, posted 03-26-2012 9:59 AM Heathen has not yet responded
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 03-26-2012 10:25 AM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 6 of 54 (657146)
03-26-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
03-26-2012 10:25 AM


The term "atheism" does not refer to a central principle, but to the lack of any central principle.

Surely one central principle would be: having no belief in a divine creator/god?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 03-26-2012 10:25 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Panda, posted 03-26-2012 11:40 AM Heathen has responded
 Message 8 by Perdition, posted 03-26-2012 11:40 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 12 of 54 (657246)
03-27-2012 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Panda
03-26-2012 11:40 AM


I guess you're right except Stamp collectors aren't trying to exert influence in schools/governments, so perhaps there's not so much of a need for an opposing position.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Panda, posted 03-26-2012 11:40 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Panda, posted 03-27-2012 5:41 AM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 13 of 54 (657247)
03-27-2012 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Modulous
03-26-2012 1:46 PM


Re: heathen manifesto
The first point you missed was actually the rejection of the term 'atheist' and the adoption of the term 'heathen'. He does not call it the atheist manifesto but the heathen manifesto - I would have thought you'd have liked this given your screen-name.

The naming didn't strike me as central to the article. Or at least not central to what I was interested in getting views on. Neither did the final point which talks about "Forging Links"

Furthermore, you managed to spell 'atheists' wrong every time.

hey ho... everyone seems to have understood anyway..

but a loosening of the definition of religion
I think that's key to this particular point.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Modulous, posted 03-26-2012 1:46 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 14 of 54 (657250)
03-27-2012 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Rahvin
03-26-2012 3:00 PM


It's entertaining that some atheists feel such a strong need to mirror religion that they can simultaneously define themselves as having no dogma while publishing their own version of the Apostles Creed.

I think it's more about being recognised as a section of society. A section who do not wish to give undue deference to religion, a section who does not wish to see crimes that would otherwise be considered hateful or bigoted being accepted as part of a persons faith. A section of society who do not wish to be absorbed into a default position of Christian, or CofE or whatever.
I don't think this article represents dogma, but rather an attempt to write down a series of principles which, the author thinks, represent a common thread in atheists/heathens or what ever you choose to be called.
It's far from perfect but, the idea that there is a part of society, not insignificant in number, who reject the "accepted" norms of religion is good, but as long as the members of that section of society just carry on, head down, allowing themselves to be counted as part of some other majority by virtue of their silence, the 'majority' are more likely to have a stronger, unopposed, mandate
This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Rahvin, posted 03-26-2012 3:00 PM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 3:26 AM Heathen has responded
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 03-27-2012 11:35 AM Heathen has responded
 Message 27 by Rahvin, posted 03-27-2012 12:42 PM Heathen has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 16 of 54 (657254)
03-27-2012 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Adequate
03-27-2012 3:26 AM


I don't think it's as prescriptive as you seem to.

merely collating what he sees are the central 'tenets' of Atheism or Heathenism


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 3:26 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2012 11:24 AM Heathen has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 12:34 PM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 18 of 54 (657262)
03-27-2012 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Panda
03-27-2012 5:41 AM


Re: Category error
ok... bad example..
This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Panda, posted 03-27-2012 5:41 AM Panda has acknowledged this reply

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 22 of 54 (657266)
03-27-2012 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Buzsaw
03-27-2012 7:07 AM


Re: Atheist, heathenist.
a. One who is regarded as irreligious...or unenlightened

Seems to fit pretty closely.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Buzsaw, posted 03-27-2012 7:07 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2012 11:31 AM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 32 of 54 (657383)
03-28-2012 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Mr Jack
03-27-2012 3:53 PM


Re: Why did you change his language?
Why did you choose to specifically replace his choice of word 'heathen' with 'atheist'?

because he uses the word Heathen as a more palatable, less loaded alternative. His ultimate meaning is the same. He states that.

Edit In fact, reading what he actually says, why did you choose to misrepresent it

I'm not sure I did misrepresent, I basically took the first few words of each point he made and listed them here.
I left out the name change from Athiest to Heathen, and the declaration about this manifesto being about forging links etc.

calm yourself.. I didn't set out to misrepresent or twist anything that he had written, if I had, posting the link kinda defeats the purpose dontcha think?

if it makes you feel better just comment on the article in the link, and ignore my bullet points. sheesh.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Mr Jack, posted 03-27-2012 3:53 PM Mr Jack has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2012 9:18 AM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 33 of 54 (657396)
03-28-2012 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Theodoric
03-27-2012 11:31 AM


Re: Atheist, heathenist.
You really are a tool arent you.

Fuck you. And take your personal attacks elsewhere.

make a lame ass point

I wasn't making a "lame ass" point you gimp.
I posted this in coffee house cos I thought it may be of interest. Nothing more. If you don't like don't read.

The author of the article is pretty informally deciding on a more appropriate title for athiests, in his opinion.
Athiests are considered "irreligious, uncivilized, or unenlightened" by many religious folk. I put an elipsis in to highlight the two descriptions I felt were more common.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Theodoric, posted 03-27-2012 11:31 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by AdminModulous, posted 03-28-2012 9:04 AM Heathen has not yet responded
 Message 38 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2012 9:22 AM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 34 of 54 (657400)
03-28-2012 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr Adequate
03-27-2012 12:34 PM


Ok.
this is a journalistic, comment-section-of-the-paper type article so I don't think getting hung up on the minutae of definitions serves any purpose.

Strictly speaking you're right, it is not technically a manifesto, it is a list of things that atheism means to this guy. (that is to say it's written more to be descriptive and prescriptive)

I guess my reason for posting this was to find out which bits of it people here do/do not identify with.

purely an exercise for interest sake. nothing more.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-27-2012 12:34 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 54 (657401)
03-28-2012 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Taq
03-27-2012 11:35 AM


You then write a manifesto telling these members what they believe and don't believe

yeah, I don't read it as him telling people what they do/don't should/shouldn't believe. I think it's far more passive than that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Taq, posted 03-27-2012 11:35 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 39 of 54 (657407)
03-28-2012 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Theodoric
03-28-2012 9:18 AM


Re: Why did you change his language?
quote:
It has long been recognised that the term "atheist" has unhelpful connotations.

it is the "connotations" he is unhappy with. not the meaning.

quote:
If we want an alternative,

He wants to find an "alternative" word for "atheist". to avoid the "connotations", not change the meaning.

quote:
atheism faces the human condition with honesty

again, referncing "atheism" as the word he wants to find an "alternative" for, to avoid "unhelpful connotations" not change the meaning.

quote:
"Heathen" fulfils this ambition.

So. "heathen" works as an "alternative" title to "Atheist" in order to avoid the "unhelpful connotations"

The author of the piece feels that heathen is an acceptable alternative to atheist. If you disagree. good for you, articulate your disagreement.
but save yourself the energy you expend in going after me. As I said, I posted this here to get some opinions, not to be an apologist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2012 9:18 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Straggler, posted 03-28-2012 10:10 AM Heathen has responded
 Message 46 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2012 7:20 PM Heathen has responded

  
Heathen
Member
Posts: 956
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 40 of 54 (657408)
03-28-2012 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Theodoric
03-28-2012 9:22 AM


Re: Atheist, heathenist.
Is it really that hard to spell the word correctly?

No, not hard, but I'm posting here while working. so time for spell checking isn't available.
I'm sorry you find it so offensive.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Theodoric, posted 03-28-2012 9:22 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Panda, posted 03-28-2012 10:18 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
1
2Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2014 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2014