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Author Topic:   Un-conversion
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 31 of 76 (658664)
04-08-2012 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by hooah212002
04-07-2012 11:11 PM


Re: Such Certainty
hooah212002 writes:
And yet, you quote bible verses as though they mean something.
Just because I don't believe that the Bible is a series of books dictated by God does not mean that I don't believe that it should be taken seriously. I think that it is fairly obvious that the writers of the NT intended that what they were writing was to be understood as an accurate description of what Jesus said and did. I can't prove that they were correct and obviously as in some cases the Gospels don't agree on some of the minor details. However we can see that to a very large degree the accounts are congruent.
If you agree with me that the writers intended them to be read as accurately depicting what Jesus said and did, then other than for the minor details they were either correct, wrong or lying.
Personally I can see no reasonable motivation for lying and considering the amount of detail it is hard to come up with a plausible explanation for them being that far wrong. I know that there are many who have come up with various explanations such as cognitive dissonance but IMHO that answer just doesn't seem likely considering the number of people that would have had to experience the death and resurrection of Jesus that way.
If they were correct in their accounts of the resurrection, as I believe they were, then we have to take very seriously the words and actions of the life of Jesus as they have recorded them.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

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 Message 30 by hooah212002, posted 04-07-2012 11:11 PM hooah212002 has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(1)
Message 32 of 76 (658665)
04-08-2012 2:05 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
04-07-2012 5:02 PM


Re: On God's
GDR writes:
That is hardly the reason He was here. Primarily He came to establish His Kingdom that is supposed to be characterized by humble sacrificial love. He went to the cross because that is what generally happened to people that upset the authorities at that time. Christ's message that the temple could be replaced by human hearts and that those hearts were to love their enemies put Him in opposition to the powerful people in that society. (Sorta like walking up and down Wall Street with a sign saying that capitalism is dead.)
Most Christians would disagree with that. They'd say the reason Jesus was here was to take upon him all the sins that we committed and are going to commit. You're saying the crucifixion was merely an accident. You've taken one of the core believes of Christianity (that Jesus died for our sins and thus, through him, we are guaranteed a place in heaven), and tossed it aside as an irrelevant consequence.
Not saying I don't like your version better. but the overwhelming majority of Christians would disagree.
Jesus was saying that the enemy wasn't the Romans, but that the enemy was evil itself and the only way to defeat evil is with it's opposite, which is love. He confronted the evil that was brought on Him and God resurrected Him in an act of love.
As I said, it was people that killed Jesus but it was God that showed that the evil inflicted on Jesus by people was not the final chapter in the story.
Ok, cool. So basically, your god just let Tangle go a little too far in his disbelief. He shouldn't believe most of the bible, or even what most Christians claim about Jesus and his purpose, however, he should still belief in a god. Now, why did your god allow Tangle to become so disillusioned with Christianity that he now rejects god outright? Could he not have bee more clear in his message?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 04-07-2012 5:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 76 (658670)
04-08-2012 2:38 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by GDR
04-07-2012 5:02 PM


Re: On God's
GDR writes:
That is hardly the reason He was here. Primarily He came to establish His Kingdom that is supposed to be characterized by humble sacrificial love. He went to the cross because that is what generally happened to people that upset the authorities at that time.
Hi GDR. Here is what Jesus says:
John 12:27-35
New King James Version (NKJV)
27 Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour. 28 Father, glorify Your name.
Then a voice came from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it and will glorify it again.
29 Therefore the people who stood by and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, An angel has spoken to Him.
30 Jesus answered and said, This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself. 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.
34 The people answered Him, We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?
35 Then Jesus said to them, A little while longer the light is with you. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you; he who walks in darkness does not know where he is going.
-bold mine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by GDR, posted 04-07-2012 5:02 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 34 of 76 (658671)
04-08-2012 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by petrophysics1
04-07-2012 5:44 PM


Re: think about this
petrophysicist writes:
I don't know about you, but do you think it wise to run and operate your life on the opinion of a 14-15 year old?
Not known for their mental ability, knowledge, or psychological maturity.
Exactly correct. I believed all the smoke, smells and nonsense until I was old enough to see through it, which for me was about 15.
Maybe think about it.
Perhaps you could think about how patronising that is?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by petrophysics1, posted 04-07-2012 5:44 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 35 of 76 (658672)
04-08-2012 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Huntard
04-08-2012 2:05 AM


Re: On God's
Huntard writes:
Most Christians would disagree with that. They'd say the reason Jesus was here was to take upon him all the sins that we committed and are going to commit. You're saying the crucifixion was merely an accident. You've taken one of the core believes of Christianity (that Jesus died for our sins and thus, through him, we are guaranteed a place in heaven), and tossed it aside as an irrelevant consequence.
I'm not tossing it aside as being irrelevant and I'm not saying that salvation isn't important. The point I'm trying to make is that salvation isn't at the heart of the Gospel that is being espoused by either the writers of the Gospels or the Epistles. The gospel message is about Jesus establishing His Kingdom. If the message is just about what Jesus did on the cross and what happened after that then we have in effect ignored the 4 gospels.
I'm not saying that the crucifixion was an accident. Jesus would have known what the outcome of His taking His message into Jerusalem, and in particular what He did in the temple, would be. Through prayer and through His understanding of what his mission or vocation was in the Hebrew Scriptures, He went ahead as an act of faith that in the end He would be vindicated. The Biblical message does tell us that He was indeed vindicated through the resurrection.
Salvation then is important but it isn't the main point of the Gospels. Actually the idea of making salvation the focus of Christianity turns the faith into something that is all about love of self as opposed to the love of others.
Here is a talk given by N T Wright who is likely the best known N T scholar in the world today. His teaching is featured in the Apr 16 edition of Time.
N T Wright - How God Became King
As far as being guaranteed a place in heaven, (and I would suggest that it is finally about new creation and not heaven), the Bible is very clear that it is about our hearts and not our theology. In fact Matthew says this in chap 7.
quote:
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Just worshipping Jesus as Lord is not what it’s about. As we see in chap 25 it is about feeding the hungry giving water to the thirsty, visiting those in prison, housing the homeless etc without understanding that there is any reward for those actions. Once again to quote Rob Bell - love wins.
Huntard writes:
Not saying I don't like your version better. but the overwhelming majority of Christians would disagree.
I think that quite likely the majority of N. American evangelicals might disagree but I believe that my beliefs are pretty orthodox as far as worldwide Christianity is concerned. Strangely enough my views are pretty consistent with one of the heroes N. American evangelism; C S Lewis.
Huntard writes:
Ok, cool. So basically, your god just let Tangle go a little too far in his disbelief. He shouldn't believe most of the bible, or even what most Christians claim about Jesus and his purpose, however, he should still belief in a god. Now, why did your god allow Tangle to become so disillusioned with Christianity that he now rejects god outright? Could he not have bee more clear in his message?
We all have the freedom to reject, twist or believe the message of the Bible and there is no one that understands it perfectly. As I said in one of my earlier posts, if we have certainty we lose our freedom to freely embrace God's desire that we love unselfishly.
It also isn't a case of disbelieving most of the Bible but it is a matter of understanding the context in which each particular book is being written, as well as the context of the entire narrative of the Bible.
If I had been part of a fundamentalist church I too would likely have come to the conclusion that I just can't buy into this either. But again, I'm not accepting that by rejecting that theology Tangle is destined for hell. In fact I reject that idea completely and I'm even suggesting that by rejecting that theology he might have even brought him closer to God, but that is between Tangle and God.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Huntard, posted 04-08-2012 2:05 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 36 of 76 (658673)
04-08-2012 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by GDR
04-07-2012 6:28 PM


Re: Which Christianity
GDR writes:
In looking at it that way though you are going back to the reason you say that you rejected Christianity in the first place. In essence you are saying that the whole point of religion is to avoid going to hell.
No, that's not my main point. My main point is about revelation. Many Christians make a big deal of personal revelation as a way of God finding them and vice versa.
I experienced the opposite and I suspect many atheists did too. One day you just notice that all the dressing up, chanting belittling and embarassing nonsense and silly rituals are, well, daft. That none of it is actually sane, let alone true.
If I'm saying anything meaningful at all about revelation, the fact that this 'god' un-reveals himself to some is evidence that revelation is not godly, it's human.
I agree that the one part of the Christian church, particularly in North America in recent years has tended to go down that road. My point is that view is a major misunderstanding of the Bible. In effect what it does is incorporate a particular misreading of Paul and ignore the Gospels.
Of course the underlying message of Jesus et al is fine, but there's no need for all the surrounding nonsense of heaven, hell, Gods and established churches to provide a reason to live a decent life.
And you have a very modern, liberal, view of this, the established churches for almost the entirity of the Chritian history have held the opposite view (and many still do) - hell fire and damnation was the message. Be baptised and believe or go to hell.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by GDR, posted 04-07-2012 6:28 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 04-08-2012 3:09 PM Tangle has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 37 of 76 (658674)
04-08-2012 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Tangle
04-08-2012 3:03 AM


Re: think about this
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with petrophysics, he is quite intelligent and apparently quite wealthy, a point which he finds no problem in continuously reminding us mere mortals.
However, he also claims to have some form of magical power that also makes him a ball of insufferable hubris. I find it rather appropriate that the bunny went down the rabbit hole, given that I am posting on Easter. Hats off to both Harvey and Donnie Darko.
Now as to the OP, there is both a lot more and a lot less, it is up to us to figure it out, depending on perspective. I think GDR has done a decent job of defending Christianity and have nothing to add other than to say, as Joseph Campbell would, religion is not a one party state.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2012 3:03 AM Tangle has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 38 of 76 (658677)
04-08-2012 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by petrophysics1
04-07-2012 5:44 PM


Re: think about this
petrophysics1 writes:
I don't know about you, but do you think it wise to run and operate your life on the opinion of a 14-15 year old?
Not known for their mental ability, knowledge, or psychological maturity. Maybe think about it.
Indeed, I don't know about you.
Let me remember, 15 years old, summer 1972.
Did a bit of reading back then. Spinoza - complete works, Kant - Penguin condensed, Locke, Hume, Berkeley - Britannica Great Books, Hegel as well. And then Santayana , Gibran, complete Shakespeare, and indeed for better or worse even a considerable amount of Ayn Rand. That 1200 pages of Les Miserables, well, a bit of recreational reading is good for the soul.
Yeah, one hell of a nerd, but as nerds go, I would pit myself at 15 against 90% of so-called adults.
Don't you find the contradiction between my previous post and this one a bit ironic, I sure do.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider. - Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by petrophysics1, posted 04-07-2012 5:44 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 76 (658681)
04-08-2012 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Tangle
04-07-2012 12:59 PM


Re: On God's
tangle writes:
The most obvious explanation is that Christianity is an error. Something we humans just made up.
To me, the most obvious explanation is that despite my beliefs, God very well may still exist. He will exist regardless of whether I believe in Him or not, and the only remaining question is what type of relationship (if any) should I prefer to have with Him.
Many atheists than dutifully trot out the spaghetti monster, thor, chutulu, and a host of other human inventions and say that I may as well ask of them also.
I dunno...it never seemed very logical to me to have the hubris to dismiss the possible existence of God simply because humans couldn't get their religious act together. I admit bias for a God to begin with, and assume that incorporated into your logic was a definite bias towards not needing a God anyway.

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Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2933 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 40 of 76 (658682)
04-08-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Tangle
04-07-2012 9:51 AM


Tangle writes:
It had nothing to do with free will, I didn't choose to notice that the whole Christian thing is a made up children's story. It was a reverse revelation.
I am not trying to be cute or trick you but I seriously would like to know where you think this "reverse revelation" came from.
Tangle writes:
How can you believe in something that you know is obvious nonsense?
Is this something that is nonsense the religlion your were practicing, or the God it was devoted to or both?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Tangle, posted 04-07-2012 9:51 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2012 10:56 AM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 42 by jar, posted 04-08-2012 11:17 AM shadow71 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 41 of 76 (658684)
04-08-2012 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by shadow71
04-08-2012 10:33 AM


shaddow77 writes:
I am not trying to be cute or trick you but I seriously would like to know where you think this "reverse revelation" came from.
The same place all revelations come from, my mind and only my mind.
Is this something that is nonsense the religlion your were practicing, or the God it was devoted to or both?
The religion. If there is a god, he has nothing to do with the religions that are established in his name.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by shadow71, posted 04-08-2012 10:33 AM shadow71 has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 76 (658685)
04-08-2012 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by shadow71
04-08-2012 10:33 AM


Checking the easy stuff
When religions try to sell stuff that is very easy to check such as whether the Biblical flood myths describe something that really happened or the conflicting mutually exclusive creation myths or the Exodus or the Conquest of Canaan and all are found to be simply false, is it possible or reasonable to trust that religion and those sources about the stuff they try to sell that is not so easy to check?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 43 of 76 (658686)
04-08-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Chuck77
04-08-2012 2:38 AM


The Gospel Message
Chuck77 writes:
Hi GDR. Here is what Jesus says:
John 12:27-35
New King James Version (NKJV)
27 Now My soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save Me from this hour’? But for this purpose I came to this hour.
Matthew relates the same account this way. Matthew 26:
quote:
38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me." 39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Jesus understood His death and resurrection, and what it all meant through Isaiah 49 and primarily through the Daniel's vision of the "Son of Man" being presented to the "Ancient of Days" in Daniel 7. He believed this on faith. He also knew that what He was doing in Jerusalem was going to upset the powers that be. He was aware of what they did to people that did that. He wasn't any particular threat to the Romans but He threatened those who were making a comfortable living through the excesses of the business in the Temple, and He was also a threat to the Herodians. On top of that He was a threat to the revolutionaries who were keen to have a messiah that would lead them in the overthrow of Roman rule, (likely this is what Judas was about), and Jesus' message of peace and love your neighbour wasn't at all what they had in mind.
Through faith in the scriptures and presumably answered prayer Jesus understood that although He was going to face a pretty certain death, that His Father would vindicate Him and that through this vindication God would establish His Kingdom on Earth. Remember that Jesus taught His followers to pray that "Thy (God's) kingdom come on Earth as in Heaven". Jesus was inaugurating a "Kingdom of God" movement and that kingdom was for the salvation of all creation. He taught that the kingdom would ultimately be complete on His return at the fulfilment of time.
Again from Ephesians 1:
quote:
9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
That's all things on heaven and earth. Jesus came to redeem all of creation. (Yes, the Bible tells us that there will be those who choose to opt out but that will be there choice.)
So yes, you can talk about personal salvation but the point is that in this life people are saved because there is a job to be done. That job is take Christ and His message of forgiveness, peace, love, kindness, mercy, justice etc to the world. Jesus established His Kingdom for the whole creation and to turn it into a message of me and my personal salvation is completely missing the point of what He was doing and preaching.
Happy Easter Chuck

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Chuck77, posted 04-08-2012 2:38 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 44 of 76 (658688)
04-08-2012 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Tangle
04-08-2012 3:26 AM


Re: Which Christianity
Tangle writes:
No, that's not my main point. My main point is about revelation. Many Christians make a big deal of personal revelation as a way of God finding them and vice versa.
I experienced the opposite and I suspect many atheists did too. One day you just notice that all the dressing up, chanting belittling and embarassing nonsense and silly rituals are, well, daft. That none of it is actually sane, let alone true.
If I'm saying anything meaningful at all about revelation, the fact that this 'god' un-reveals himself to some is evidence that revelation is not godly, it's human.
Who knows where our thoughts come from. I’m always highly suspicious of people that say God told me to do this or that. I’ve also listened to some Christian musicians who talk about a song that God has given them and I come away thinking that God isn’t a very good song writer.
I think that there is a deep meaning and truth in the idea that we are made in God’s image although I wouldn’t want to be definitive on how to explain what that actually looks like. I think though that what flows from that is the view that we have been given the power, the ability and the responsibility of caring for our part of creation. I do think that God speaks through human imagination but obviously I don’t think that all that we imagine comes from God. It is just something that we have to sort out in life in if we come to the conclusion that you have that there is no god.
Sure I can agree that in many ways the rituals are daft, but Jesus’ message is that we are to serve within communities that reflect His love into the world. Humans have come up with ways of doing that that have become traditions. Yes, they are human inventions but the after all we are humans. Sometimes they seem a bit silly, (I look at the get up the Bishops wear and shake my head ), but then again as these traditions date back to a distant era I suppose that what we expect and it does connect us to those who have gone before. We have all sorts of similar secular traditions.
I actually don’t agree that we become Christian to Revelation. I’m not sure what it is and no doubt it is different for everybody. For me I just came to the conclusion that it was the truth and it makes sense of the world I live in. You have just come to a different conclusion although I think we would agree that the Christianity that you rejected is not the Christianity that I believe in. (Not that this in any way is to say that my views are the right ones. They are just that — my views no matter how firmly I believe them.)
Tangle writes:
Of course the underlying message of Jesus et al is fine, but there's no need for all the surrounding nonsense of heaven, hell, Gods and established churches to provide a reason to live a decent life.
In my view it all depends on the resurrection. If Jesus was not resurrected then I’m wasting my time in church as Paul tells us. I would be much better off in Synagogue or at the Rotary Club. I am convinced of the truth of Jesus’ resurrection and in believing that it then becomes important to sort out what He was and is all about. The reason to live a decent life is not because the church says so, or even that Jesus says so. The recent to live a decent life is because that is where our heart should be.
Tangle writes:
And you have a very modern, liberal, view of this, the established churches for almost the entirity of the Chritian history have held the opposite view (and many still do) - hell fire and damnation was the message. Be baptised and believe or go to hell.
Well I suppose Chuck or Buz would consider me a liberal but in many circles I’m considered conservative. There are a large group that are advocates of The Jesus Seminar whose views I pretty much completely reject.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2012 3:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Tangle, posted 04-08-2012 3:25 PM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 45 of 76 (658689)
04-08-2012 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by GDR
04-08-2012 3:09 PM


Re: Which Christianity
GDR writes:
Who knows where our thoughts come from.
I suggest that we all know where our thoughts come from - and it ain't from outside our heads!
Not all religious beliefs come via revelation; in fact I'm pretty sure the vast majority are just born into their faiths and then assimilate. It always amuses me that no-one is born believing a different religion to their parents and revelations only happens to those that already have knowledge of that religion. Christianity is never revealed to a muslim in a remote village in the Atlas mountains - nope, it's always Islam.
It so obviously all man made, it really puzzles me how many people can swallow it all - even when they can see how utterly embarassing the reality of faith as practiced by the faithful actually is.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by GDR, posted 04-08-2012 3:09 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by GDR, posted 04-08-2012 6:33 PM Tangle has replied

  
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