Gay\transgender -- not by genetics, not by upbringing, not by choice

Accurate but imprecise.Neither the body nor the mind of a person suffering from gender identity dysphoria is ill. Neither, alone, requires treatment.However, the combination is the problem that needs to be addressed, as it is the mismatch between identity and body that causes negative consequences for the patient.Identifying as male or female is not a problem. It's not an illness. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.Having a male or female body is not a problem. It's not an illness. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.But identifying as male while having a female body, or identifying as female while having a male body, is a problem.We have a square peg and a triangular hole. Neither squares nor triangles are bad, but square pegs cannot fit into triangular holes. We can trade our square peg for a triangular one, or trade our triangular hole for a square one, and thereby resolve the disparity, even though separately nothing was wrong with either component.Do you see the distinction? Gender reassignment is corrective, but not because it corrects some flaw or illness in the body. It's corrective because it corrects the identity/body mismatch.

I've asked how that supposed "mismatch" would be detected, since I have no idea how I would detect a "mismatch" in myself. I'm still waiting for an answer. I'm left with the impression of a laundry list of stereotypical characterstics that a male or female identity "should" have. Not to be flippant but your solution seems a lot like hammering a square peg into a triangular hole. If you want that statement to make any sense, you'll have to be a lot clearer about what a "mismatch" is. All you're doing is repeating that there's a "mismatch" without establishing what is mismatched with what.Are the toys or the colours or the clothes mismatched with the genitals, or what?

You're over-complicating. You're expecting a list like "plays with GI Joes instead of Barbies" or "prefers pink to blue." Gender identity is not determined by toy and color preference, or the desire to wear a dress or pants (there are men who identify as men who like wearing women's clothing - they are transvestites, and they do not suffer from gender identity dysphoria, and that may be part of the source of your expectation).Identity is determined by the individual. In the same way that you can't determine who identifies as a Christian through an examination, you can't necessarily tell someone's gender identity. Usually it matches the biological sex. The only physical correlation of note to date other than the physical sex (and therefore the correlation that appears most relevant to gender identity dysphoria) is brain structure.But the key is a simple question: are you a he, or a she?The vast majority of people don't have any problem with that sort of question, and they feel no distress from it. But a small minority of people self-identify as one gender while their outward, physical sex is different, and they have strongly negative feelings about the mismatch.That's all it is. There's no long list of items to check off based upon social gender stereotypes. Gender identity dysphoria exists when an individual strongly identifies as one gender, and their physical sex is the opposite gender, and they feel extreme distress from the difference.The mismatch is determined very easily at the start: when the patient says "I am a x trapped in a y's body." I understand that perspective. But you do see the distinction that the analogy was intended to draw, yes? There is no problem with the mind, there is no problem with the body, but there is a problem with the mind/body combination.

The question remains: How do they identify themselves as one gender or the other? And why? "They just do," is an unsatisfying answer. When a square peg doesn't fit in a triangular hole, I leave it out.

Whether you find it personally satisfying is irrelevant beyond your own curiosity.We know that many (most?) people tend to self-identify as one gender or the other. We know that a tiny minority of individuals strongly identify as a gender other than that represented by their physical sex. We know that these people tend to suffer extreme distress at the difference between who they perceive themselves to be and the body they inhabit.Why a person identifies as male or female may be relevant for a future treatment, but it is not necessary to know the mechanism that causes the self identification to know what the self-identification is.You don't need to know why you prefer blue to red to know that the preference exists.I don't know what causes people to identify as male or female. The obvious initial assumption would be inhabiting a male or female body, but people who suffer gender identity dysphoria appear to disprove that hypothesis. Brain structure correlates with self identity, but I, at least, am unaware of the root cause for the structural difference. So far as I know, the difference in structure may cause gender identity, or they may simply share a root cause.But I do know that I can ask a person whether they are male or female and get an answer, very easily. If desired, I could even verify that identity through a brain scan given sufficient resources.I also know that, if a person desires transition after being informed of the process, the success rate, and the risks, I can proceed to instruct the individual to live as the identified gender full-time for an extended period and verify with psychiatric professionals that the individual is experiencing a life quality improvement and that the individual is mentally and emotionally sound to proceed. I know that I can then proceed to add easily reversible hormone therapy to the treatment regimen, and can continue to verify with the patient through psychiatric professionals that the individual is experiencing an improvement in life quality and that they are mentally and emotionally capable of proceeding.I also know personally of multiple individuals who have gone through that entire process and followed it up with gender reassignment surgery and are now significantly more happy in their lives...one is in fact more mentally and emotionally stable post-transition.I'm well aware that personal anecdote is trumped by statistically significant data...yet the bias of my personal experience is toward younger, more recent patients who were all male-to-female transitions, and the success rate studies posted previously specifically mentioned that the quality of the reassignment was extremely relevant in the success of the overall transition...and not only have reassignment surgeries massively improved over the past decade, male to female surgery has always been drastically more successful than the reverse.In other words, the data offered by the study does not offer a complete picture of modern gender reassignment, and I am therefore inclined to trust more in those with whom I have personally interacted and have completed their treatment in the past few years than in a study that includes vastly inferior surgeries.I expect female to male transitions to be significantly inferior even today, and expect quality of life to possibly even diminish in many cases post transition due to the results of the surgery. The appropriate tissue simply isn't present to create male genitalia from female, specifically the erectile tissue.However, I expect male to female transitions to be largely successful given modern treatment of appropriate candidates. I can't even tell the difference between natural plumbing and the work of a skilled surgeon without an extremely close inspection. The results of surgery work perfectly for everything other than actual reproductive processes, and even form appropriate mucous membranes and retain sensitivity. It's really quite amazing. Unfortunately, when you remove the mind from the body, the result thus far is death. "Leaving it out" seems to not be an option.Perhaps you actually refer to "dealing with it," perhaps through therapy, to resolve the distress without actually attempting to change the structure of either the brain or the body. Unfortunately, this is rather akin to attempting to "cure" homosexuality, which has neither been successful nor anything other than detrimental to patients.

Then what's the difference between a man who perceives himself as a woman but isn't and a man who perceives himself as one-legged but isn't? Or a man who perceives himself as Chinese but isn't? Or a man who perceives himself as Napoleon but isn't? I said, "leave it out," not, "remove it." I think I've said that fairly explicitly. Not at all. "Curing" homosexuality is trying to turn people into something they're not. It's more akin to using surgery to make somebody look like something they're not.I advocate letting people be who they are. If they're heterosexual, fine. If they're homosexual, fine. If they're a woman in a man's body, fine. There's no more need to cut one out than the others.

If you put Napoleon's brain in the Duke of Wellington's body, he'd still be Napoleon, wouldn't he?

The British Army wouldn't think so. They'd probably clap him in an asylum.

But they'd be wrong, wouldn't they?

I honestly don't know. With my own hypothetical Let's say that a brain change is a safely available alternative to a genital change.How many of the male to female transgenders do you think would opt for it? I ask because there seems to be this notion that MTF's are certainly not "men who want to be women", but I'd bet that if given the choice, they would want to have the female genitals over the male brain. Given a prevalence of them prefering the genital change to the brain one, would the notion still stand?

They'd only be half wrong. They'd have half a Napoleon.

Rahvin, I happen to have had some unpleasant encounters with gay men over the decades. At about age nine, after school and weekends I worked with my dad in his business. It was my lot to go up the alley to the store or P.O. etc. The alley was behind the main street theater. The janitor came out the back door of the theator and beconed me over. He showed me some empty billfolds, quite a lot of them that were left by hapless customers.Obviously, he cleaned out the cash and discarded the rest. Anyhow, he offered me a nice one and proceeded to take down my pants and molest me, I didn't know what to do, but never said anythng about it to anyone. When I showed the billfold to my dad he warned me not to ever go there anymore, not ever learning what I was too ashamed to reveal.Another example of some unpleasant encounters with gays was on a trip to Wyoming to visit family in our motorhome with our two young boys. We were in upper Michigan, having taken a new route. We were traveling along the coast of Lake Michigan. We pulled into a beach park which was empty. We bedded down for the night. About midnight a large number of cars began moving in a ways down in a different entrance, not far off.It wasn't long before it became very noisy and nasty, the men yelling vile and obscene stuff. Then they headed our way in a menacing way. By the time we got dressed they were outside the locked camper threatening us. I got into the seat just in time and we moved out.Though I could cite other examples of things, indicative that your comparison to Christianity is invalid and though one is a deviation from the natural and normal For the most part, I've had good relationships with gays in business, etc. I've always treated them like everyone else, Some have been friends. I beg to differ. Many talk and act effeminitely which is offensive to some patrions, depending on the type of business and their role.OTOH many serve equally as well as straights, no matter what their role, even in such places where they serve patrons directly. A number of examples come to mind.Before gays came out of the closet back in the hippy sixties, there were far fewer of them. They were neither vocal or activist. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Straight men molest boys too. How would you know their number if they were in hiding? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Straight men are more apt to sexually molest girls than boys. What would drive them to sexually molest boys? It wasn't until the hippy sixties decade that apostacy from Biblical principles began to prevail in America. That was the decade in which the hippie phenomena swept the nation. That was the decade of mini-skirts, the lowering of female necklines, sloppy atire, etc emerged. That was the decade after which one could no longer exchange the paper money notes into something of value at the bank, i.e. silver.That was the decade of deviancy from the norm. That was the decade of the beginning of the decline of the America from a God blessed America to the God cursed nation that it has become, thanks to all forms of sexual deviancy etc.In short, that was the decade of the begining of the filling of the cup of God's wrath as per the OT prophets, corroborated by Jesus, his apostles and John, the revelator in the NT. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

No, they're not.Gay men are attracted to men, just as straight men are attracted to women, Pedophiles are attracted to children. I'm very sorry to hear about your experience Buz, but you encountered a pedophile, not a gay man.Pedophiles are those afflicted with a particular sexual orientation - they are sexually aroused by pre-pubescent children.A gay man, in comparison, is sexually aroused by other adult men. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning