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Author Topic:   Genesis 1:1-5 Day One
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 110 (661463)
05-06-2012 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
05-05-2012 2:56 PM


Re: The Light was Good
we can say with some confidence that at least the infrared section of the electromagnetic spectrum existed.

Why?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 05-05-2012 2:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Panda, posted 05-06-2012 7:38 AM Jon has responded
 Message 18 by jar, posted 05-06-2012 9:54 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1244 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 17 of 110 (661465)
05-06-2012 7:38 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
05-06-2012 2:21 AM


Re: The Light was Good
CJ writes:

Why?


Heat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 2:21 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 8:10 PM Panda has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 18 of 110 (661469)
05-06-2012 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
05-06-2012 2:21 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Yup, that the water existed and was without form indicates that it was above absolute zero and so it would radiate heat.

So we know that at least part of the electromagnetic spectrum existed.

We also know that gravity existed.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 2:21 AM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5288
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 19 of 110 (661474)
05-06-2012 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
05-06-2012 9:54 AM


Re: The Light was Good
And if the water was "without form," it sounds like it was liquid or vapor. All the ice I've ever seen had some shape or the other.....
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 05-06-2012 9:54 AM jar has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9922
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 20 of 110 (661478)
05-06-2012 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-04-2012 11:44 PM


Re: The Light was Good
What question does the OP ask. It seems to me that the explicit question, namely, why there was no light when the earth was made, is actually answered by CreationJon.

It also seems clear that the OP is not an invite to discuss reasons why CreationJon's theory of origins is wrong. It's pretty clear what Genesis actually says.

So why should this thread last more than three posts before the subject is exhausted? Is there actually anything more to say that would actually be on topic?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-04-2012 11:44 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 8:15 PM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9922
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 21 of 110 (661482)
05-06-2012 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Jon
05-05-2012 11:30 AM


Re: The Light was Good
I am saying that before there were the necessary matters and energies light could not have existed.

Among the things that are mentioned in the first few verses of Genesis, which are things that must exist before light could have existed?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Jon, posted 05-05-2012 11:30 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 110 (661491)
05-06-2012 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Panda
05-06-2012 7:38 AM


Re: The Light was Good
It is in our world, fully created and operational, that all things with heat (molecular motion) emit infrared radiation.

I don't see why this has to have been the case early on, when the molecules may have simply moved without emitting radiation. Even so, however; if there was infrared radiation, this is still not evidence that there must have been light before the creation of the Earth.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Panda, posted 05-06-2012 7:38 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Panda, posted 05-06-2012 11:19 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 110 (661492)
05-06-2012 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
05-06-2012 12:29 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Re: The Light was Good
What question does the OP ask. It seems to me that the explicit question, namely, why there was no light when the earth was made, is actually answered by CreationJon.

It also seems clear that the OP is not an invite to discuss reasons why CreationJon's theory of origins is wrong. It's pretty clear what Genesis actually says.

So why should this thread last more than three posts before the subject is exhausted? Is there actually anything more to say that would actually be on topic?

It is the standard scientific model that the Sun was first to form and from its circulating dust clouds came the planets. Since the Sun is a source of light, the conclusion cannot be avoided that there had to be light before there was a planet Earth.

This does not agree with the Official account as given in Genesis, which states that the Earth was first made and then light. Nor does it fit with the evidence that there cannot be light without anything for light to illuminate and without any of the necessary matters or energies for supporting light's existence. Clearly these matters and energies (the formless Earth) existed before light, contrary to the standard scientific opinion.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2012 12:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2012 8:52 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9922
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 24 of 110 (661496)
05-06-2012 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Jon
05-06-2012 8:15 PM


Re: The Light was Good
nor does it fit with the evidence that there cannot be light without anything for light to illuminate

Evidence? What evidence?

You yourself have not presented any evidence for the above quote proposition. What the OP uses to advance this proposition is an un-evidenced claim that does not make sense to have light before there is an earth in a universe where nothing happens without a purpose. This logic can be questioned, but before we get around to questioning the logic, we can note that the logic is argument and not evidence.

All that is required to have electromagnetic radiation in this universe is for an unbound electron to change direction, or otherwise accelerate. Is there some evidence that any such thing is missing prior to the creation of the earth? Is there any denial of the existence of electrons during the time covered by Genesis 1:1-2?

The answer is no. Other than your recitation of what Genesis says, and your desire to hold the order of creation described therein to be true, you've got nothing.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 8:15 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 10:34 PM NoNukes has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 110 (661499)
05-06-2012 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
05-06-2012 8:52 PM


Re: The Light was Good
All that is required to have electromagnetic radiation in this universe is for an unbound electron to change direction, or otherwise accelerate.

Which means you need first electrons (i.e., matter (= unformed Earth)).


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2012 8:52 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2012 10:51 PM Jon has responded
 Message 27 by jar, posted 05-06-2012 10:55 PM Jon has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9922
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 26 of 110 (661500)
05-06-2012 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jon
05-06-2012 10:34 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Which means you need first electrons (i.e., matter

I note that you skipped most of my message in order to address this part.

I also note that you have resorted back to simply quoting Genesis.

There is no argument from me regarding whether Genesis describes that the earth existed before God said let there be light. If that is your only point, and you are not challenging any scientific evidence to the contrary, then this thread has little, if any point.

Yes, the science based account does disagree with Genesis as interpreted by Creationists. Who did not know that?

For What It's Worth:

The cosmic background microwave radiation is evidence that electromagnetic radiation consistent with a temperature of around 3000K was prevalent a few hundred thousand years or so after the BB. That would be about 4.6 billion years before the sun or earth existed.

Edited by NoNukes, : FWIW


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 10:34 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:57 AM NoNukes has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.3


(1)
Message 27 of 110 (661501)
05-06-2012 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jon
05-06-2012 10:34 PM


Re: The Light was Good
But we know we had more than just electrons, we had the heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and the question is how we got heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and electrons before light?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 10:34 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 05-07-2012 7:59 AM jar has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1244 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 28 of 110 (661502)
05-06-2012 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
05-06-2012 8:10 PM


Re: The Light was Good
CJ writes:

It is in our world, fully created and operational, that all things with heat (molecular motion) emit infrared radiation.

I don't see why this has to have been the case early on, when the molecules may have simply moved without emitting radiation.


If our current physical laws are not necessarily applicable and you are unable to provide an alternative list of laws then there is little else to say.

Did/can light exist before matter?
I could only answer that question if I knew which laws were in effect.
Without that additional information, all I can say is: "It depends on which physical laws existed."

It is one of the problems with "God-did-it": there is no explanation to discuss.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


Tradition and heritage are all dead people's baggage. Stop carrying it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 05-06-2012 8:10 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 110 (661505)
05-07-2012 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
05-06-2012 10:51 PM


Re: The Light was Good
The cosmic background microwave radiation is evidence that electromagnetic radiation consistent with a temperature of around 3000K was prevalent a few hundred thousand years or so after the BB. That would be about 4.6 billion years before the sun or earth existed.

Assuming a Big Bang.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 05-06-2012 10:51 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2012 1:52 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 110 (661506)
05-07-2012 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
05-06-2012 10:55 PM


Re: The Light was Good
But we know we had more than just electrons, we had the heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and the question is how we got heavens and the earth and water and gravity and helium and oxygen and protons and neutrons and electrons before light?

Ahh. Well, the simple answer is that Light was just created after many of those other things (gravity might be an exception). We have matter existing before light; maybe not all matter and certainly not in all forms, but there was matter there first, nonetheless.

CJ

Edited by CreationJon, : No reason given.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 05-06-2012 10:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Tangle, posted 05-07-2012 8:22 AM Jon has responded
 Message 33 by jar, posted 05-07-2012 9:40 AM Jon has responded
 Message 34 by NoNukes, posted 05-07-2012 1:17 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Calminian, posted 10-22-2012 1:24 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
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