Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 113 (8749 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-25-2017 6:05 PM
384 online now:
14174dm, Asgara (AdminAsgara), CRR, edge, kjsimons, ooh-child, PaulK, ramoss, Stile, Tangle (10 members, 374 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Roshankumar1234
Post Volume:
Total: 809,015 Year: 13,621/21,208 Month: 3,103/3,605 Week: 445/933 Day: 34/56 Hour: 1/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123
4
5678Next
Author Topic:   Genesis 1:1-5 Day One
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 110 (661809)
05-10-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by vimesey
05-09-2012 9:11 AM


Re: The Light was Good
If it would be silly to suggest that light can exist before various matters and energies exist (and I'm pretty sure that no one is suggesting that (subject to my earlier point about things being much more complex)), then why is it not silly to suggest that those matters and energies can exist for a day or so before they get round to producing light ?

Well; I've made no mention of time spans, and there is certainly no matter of time span mentioned between Genesis 1:14; that is, there is no indication as to how long the formless Earth and its energies sat before the creation of Light.

Once Light exists as a separate entity from non-Light (Darkness), then we can at least vaguely get a measure of time passing between the formation of various things, but prior to that I cannot see how we can make any claims regarding the elapsed time between creation of matter and energy and the formation of Light.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by vimesey, posted 05-09-2012 9:11 AM vimesey has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 47 of 110 (661820)
05-10-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jon
05-10-2012 11:51 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Let's start with photons.

What is needed to produce a photon?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 05-10-2012 11:51 AM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 05-11-2012 11:36 AM jar has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9543
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 48 of 110 (661821)
05-10-2012 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Jon
05-10-2012 11:51 AM


Wha??
Let's start with photons. Do you have trouble accepting the claim that photons are required for the existence of light?

Do you know what a photon is? Because the idea that photons are a pre-cursor for light is inane.

No, light is not required for the existence of light.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Jon, posted 05-10-2012 11:51 AM Jon has acknowledged this reply

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 110 (661968)
05-11-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
05-10-2012 2:39 PM


Re: The Light was Good
What is needed to produce a photon?

quote:
Wikipedia on Photons:

Photons are emitted in many natural processes. For example, when a charge is accelerated it emits synchrotron radiation. During a molecular, atomic or nuclear transition to a lower energy level, photons of various energy will be emitted, from infrared light to gamma rays. A photon can also be emitted when a particle and its corresponding antiparticle are annihilated (for example, electron-positron annihilation).


To produce a photon we need matter doing stuff, which means we first need the matter.


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 05-10-2012 2:39 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 05-11-2012 11:42 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28838
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 50 of 110 (661969)
05-11-2012 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jon
05-11-2012 11:36 AM


Re: The Light was Good
But according to the story, the 'stuff' needed to produce light already existed and by it's very existence there would have been light even before God said "Let there be light" unless you can explain how the pieces parts that already existed were somehow prevented from producing photons.

Since we know that hydrogen and oxygen existed and that they combined to produce water and that the water was above absolute zero (likely above freezing) then there were already photons being produced.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jon, posted 05-11-2012 11:36 AM Jon has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5577
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007


Message 51 of 110 (662015)
05-11-2012 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-04-2012 11:44 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Hi CJ,

CJ writes:

Why was there no light when the Earth was made?

Who says there was no light when the Earth was created?
The Earth was created a long time before Genesis 1:2.

CJ writes:

Of course not! As the opening passages of Genesis tell us, Earth was first made;

In what part of Genesis do you find that information?

Genesis 1:1 says "In the beginning created God, the heavens, and the earth".

My question to you CJ is:

Does the Earth exist in the Universe (heavens)?

If the Earth exists in the Universe then the Universe had to exist first, for the Earth to exist in it.

CJ writes:

Imagine the light existing first in the absence of anything. What do you imagine...?

Darkness!

No Thing can exist in non existence which an absence of anything is.

CJ writes:

So in the beginning, there was nothing. Then the Earth was formed.

What is your definition of nothing?

My definition is non existence.

If there was non existence then what was the Earth formed from and what caused the material to exist that the Earth was formed from?

Non existence would mean that not even God existed.

CJ writes:

Only then could light existbefore this time it would simply be called 'darkness'. Light was created to shine down and illuminate a world in creation (previously dark: Gen 1:2).

Are saying that before Genesis 1:2 which was only around 6,000 years ago there was no light?

Upon what information do you make that assertion?

There was no light created in Genesis 1:3. Light was made visible on Earth.

There was no lights created in Genesis 1:14.

The Hebrew word ברא transliterated bara'
and translated created refers to 3 events in the Bible. Genesis 1:1, 1:21, 1:27. All other references refer to one of these events.

There was no sun or moon created in Genesis 1:16. They were made visible from Earth.

There has been times when the Earth had a problem receiving light.
Here is an example from Science Daily.

Science Daily writes:

ScienceDaily (Jan. 18, 2007) About 65 million years ago, a massive disruption led to worldwide extinction of dinosaurs. The impact of a giant asteroid created massive tsunamis and spewed forth a global cloud of carbon gases that altered Earth's atmosphere and blocked the light for weeks, possibly years. In recent years, that impact event has been linked to a 112-mile-wide crater, dubbed Chicxulub, on the coast of Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2007/01/070118094039.htm

"Blocked out light for weeks, possibly years".

This situation would be similiar to the conditions found on Earth in Genesis 1:2. The difference would be the water did not act like a tsunami, but just covered all the land mass.

This would make it necessary for God to make the light visible again on earth.

Looking forward to your evidence or reasoning that light did not exist prior to Genesis 1:2.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-04-2012 11:44 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 8:26 AM ICANT has responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 110 (662091)
05-12-2012 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICANT
05-11-2012 3:25 PM


Re: The Light was Good
CJ writes:

Of course not! As the opening passages of Genesis tell us, Earth was first made;

In what part of Genesis do you find that information?

I think you're misreading this. By 'first' I simply mean before Light; between Light and Earth, Earth was the first to be made.

If there was non existence then what was the Earth formed from and what caused the material to exist that the Earth was formed from?

That's not really on topic for here. The main point in this thread is that Earth was created first and then Light. It was not the Sun being created followed by the formation of the other matter as evolutionists would have you believe.

Non existence would mean that not even God existed.

You're reading far too much into what I'm saying. Nothing simply means no matter or energy (in the physical sense).

Are saying that before Genesis 1:2 which was only around 6,000 years ago there was no light?

6,000 years ago? By what measuring standard?

Looking forward to your evidence or reasoning that light did not exist prior to Genesis 1:2.

What more reasoning could you require other than the simple fact that it is specifically stated as to when Light was created. There is, of course, nothing in the text to suggest that this was merely a 'making visible on Earth' event. It was a from-scratch creationprior to which everything was in darkness. There is no other way to read the text. There is no other way to interpret the scientific evidence.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ICANT, posted 05-11-2012 3:25 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by DWIII, posted 05-12-2012 10:03 AM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 61 by ICANT, posted 05-13-2012 1:39 AM Jon has responded

  
DWIII
Member (Idle past 614 days)
Posts: 72
From: United States
Joined: 06-30-2011


Message 53 of 110 (662100)
05-12-2012 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Jon
05-12-2012 8:26 AM


Re: The Light was Good
CreationJon writes:


The main point in this thread is that Earth was created first and then Light. It was not the Sun being created followed by the formation of the other matter as evolutionists would have you believe.

So, the luminous-blue daytime sky (the "primordial light", if you will, having been separated from the darkness of the night-time sky) existed as such for a minimum of three and a half days before the creation of the sun(!). Well, this is quite typical of ancient cosmogonies, being ignorant of how the Earth's atmosphere scatters sunlight.

The speed of ordinary light (in vacuum) is 299,792,458 meters per second. How fast does primordial light go?


DWIII

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 8:26 AM Jon has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4638
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 54 of 110 (662105)
05-12-2012 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
05-04-2012 11:44 PM


Re: The Light was Good
CreationJon writes:

Surely the Evolutionists will tell you that the Sun was first to form and from it the planets

You've said this a few times now. I'd just like to point out that 'evolutionists' (whoever they are) did not tell us the order that the universe was made in or how. That's the job of mathematicians and physicists. As a creationist, your fight is against the entirity of science, not just the biologists that study evolution.

As the opening passages of Genesis tell us, Earth was first made; after was made the light (though not yet the Sun, Moon, or Stars).

Most people think that the sun is responsible for most of the light we get here on earth, so are you saying that before god made the sun, he lit the earth by some other mechanism?


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 05-04-2012 11:44 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 1:10 PM Tangle has responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 110 (662114)
05-12-2012 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Tangle
05-12-2012 10:35 AM


Re: The Light was Good
Most people think that the sun is responsible for most of the light we get here on earth, so are you saying that before god made the sun, he lit the earth by some other mechanism?

I'm saying there was Light before the Sun existed, yes. But I think even evolutionists would agree with such a statement.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2012 10:35 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2012 1:27 PM Jon has not yet responded
 Message 57 by bluescat48, posted 05-12-2012 4:56 PM Jon has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4638
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 56 of 110 (662117)
05-12-2012 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Jon
05-12-2012 1:10 PM


Re: The Light was Good
CreationJon writes:

I'm saying there was Light before the Sun existed, yes. But I think even evolutionists would agree with such a statement

If there was no sun, moon or stars, where was the light coming from that illuminated the earth?

(This has nothing to do with evolution or evolutionists - you dounderstand that don't you?)


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 1:10 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1600 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 57 of 110 (662130)
05-12-2012 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Jon
05-12-2012 1:10 PM


Re: The Light was Good
Yes there was light energy before the sun existed. But if the genesis story was true, there would have been no light , in the visible portion of the spectrum, until after the sun had been created.
The earth would have been totally dark.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 1:10 PM Jon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 05-12-2012 5:27 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

    
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 110 (662134)
05-12-2012 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by bluescat48
05-12-2012 4:56 PM


Re: The Light was Good
But if the genesis story was true, there would have been no light , in the visible portion of the spectrum, until after the sun had been created.

Well that's obviously nonsense. If the Genesis story is true, then there certainly would have been light before the Sun had been created since that is specifically what the Genesis story claims as true.

CJ


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by bluescat48, posted 05-12-2012 4:56 PM bluescat48 has not yet responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 4638
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 59 of 110 (662138)
05-12-2012 6:04 PM


Bloody hell....light energy but no light or no sun but light.

Are you sure you want to argue either of these positions?

Edited by Tangle, : Typo


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by bluescat48, posted 05-12-2012 10:10 PM Tangle has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 1600 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 60 of 110 (662154)
05-12-2012 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Tangle
05-12-2012 6:04 PM


There was light energy, but the light needed on earth is the electromagnetic spectrum from the sun, the visible is not of matter, but the infrared & ultraviolet are. Without these, no life. All you would have is a cold, solid rock.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Tangle, posted 05-12-2012 6:04 PM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Tangle, posted 05-13-2012 3:16 AM bluescat48 has responded

    
Prev123
4
5678Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017