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Author Topic:   The Power of Belief
Panda
Member (Idle past 3734 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 3 of 61 (666145)
06-22-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dogmafood
06-22-2012 7:27 AM


Connected
Are you suggesting that there is an inevitability to achieving something if you wish hard enough for it?
That enough commitment will guarantee a particular result?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

CRYSTALS!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dogmafood, posted 06-22-2012 7:27 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dogmafood, posted 06-24-2012 12:16 AM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3734 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 14 of 61 (666208)
06-24-2012 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Dogmafood
06-24-2012 12:16 AM


Re: Connected
Hi, DF
Dogmafood writes:
I am not saying that anything is immediately possible. Obviously not everything that we can imagine doing is possible to do, right now. But what is completely and eternally impossible to do?
Well, since I am not eternal , that seems an irrelevant question.
The list of things that are completely impossible for me to do is quite large - no amount of wishing will change that.
(Granted, the odds of me going to the Moon is greatly increased by me 'wishing' to go to the Moon.
But I don't think that is what you are talking about.)
Dogmafood writes:
Down at the obvious end of the scale, my confidence in my ability to do a thing can have a large impact on my actual ability to do a thing. Say there is a tree to be climbed and 2 guys to climb it. One of them scurries up and down the tree no problem. The other is afraid of heights, makes it half way up and then falls because he is racked with fear. The successful climber succeeded solely because of his confidence in his ability. The crippled guy failed because of his lack of confidence.
But that sounds like the sharp shooter fallacy.
What would you have said if the climber with vertigo had successfully climbed the tree?
What would you have said if the confident climber had fallen from the tree?
(And as a successful climber that suffers from vertigo, I know that "The successful climber succeeded solely because of his confidence in his ability" is not true. )
I think that the problem with your theory is that it doesn't make any real predictions and it is unfalsifiable.
At best you are left with the vague claim that a confident attitude might have a positive (but unspecific) affect on some aspect of your life.
tbh: I am having trouble differentiating between your idea and confirmation bias.
Perhaps this example might explain the problems I have with your idea:
In the Olympics there is the 100m event where the fastest athletes compete for gold.
They are all 100% dedicated and driven and confident.
So why doesn't the race end in a draw?

CRYSTALS!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Dogmafood, posted 06-24-2012 12:16 AM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 06-24-2012 10:44 AM Panda has not replied
 Message 18 by Dogmafood, posted 06-24-2012 11:32 PM Panda has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3734 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 23 of 61 (666248)
06-25-2012 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dogmafood
06-24-2012 11:32 PM


Re: Connected
DM writes:
Let me put it this way. If enough people believe that some particular thing is possible and continue to work toward it's realization until they achieve success, anything is possible.
I am still unconvinced by 'anything is possible'.
I don't see a group of 10000 people being able to teach a goldfish to fly a jet - however much they are convinced that they can succeed.
DM writes:
I would say that his confidence in his ability was up to the task.
A climber with vertigo could fall from the tree a random number of times.
But you would argue that he has a varying amount of confidence each time?
That definitely sounds like the sharp-shooter fallacy to me.
DM writes:
...and also that it wouldn't serve as a good example for what I am trying to flesh out.
Yes.
You are standing under the tree waiting for the confident climber to succeed so that you can point at him and say "See? I was correct!" - while ignoring him when he falls.
Definitely confirmation bias.
DM writes:
If you were trying to write an equation to define the extent of all possible realities, what part would a person's attitude take in it? How much can your level of conviction expand the sphere of all possible realities?
Isn't that what you are trying to show?
I agree that it would be greater than zero, but as I said in my previous reply, "the odds of me going to the Moon is greatly increased by me 'wishing' to go to the Moon" but I don't see our own personal confidence being able to push the boundaries of what is possible.
imh: something is either possible or it is not - but you are not likely to achieve the possible if you don't try.
But you can also achieve the possible if you don't try (i.e. accidentally inventing an artificial sweetener).
DM writes:
I see that it is a vague claim but also that there is a real and tangible effect on our reality caused solely by our attitude towards it. How big is that effect?
Confidence definitely affects our interactions with other people, but it is not always a positive effect: confidence can be viewed as arrogance.
But I still don't see it changing what is actually possible.
Hmmm...quite rambling.
Ok - let me try and draw my points into a more cohesive statement of my thoughts...
Confidence can affect our lives (both positively and negatively).
Confidence doesn't change what is actually possible.
If someone tries to do something, then that 'something' is more likely to happen - regardless of their confidence.
But a confident person might spend longer trying to do that 'something' - increasing their chances of success.
Hopefully that makes sense.

CRYSTALS!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Dogmafood, posted 06-24-2012 11:32 PM Dogmafood has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Dogmafood, posted 06-26-2012 6:06 AM Panda has not replied

  
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