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Author Topic:   Supreme Court upholds Obamacare
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 98 (666633)
06-29-2012 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Jon
06-29-2012 9:28 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Are you unaware that during his campaign, he promised not to raise taxes of earners under a quarter of a million by "one dime"?
Of course the "one dime? may have been tongue in cheek, knowing full well that he would actually be raising the taxes of the sheeple considerabley more than a single dime. Obama is a master deceiver, applying plays on words.
Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 98 (666634)
06-29-2012 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Rahvin
06-29-2012 9:33 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Rahvin writes:
It's not difficult at all to receive treatment in Canada.
Why then, so many coming across the border for health care, due to the wait in Canada for treatment?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Rahvin, posted 06-29-2012 9:33 AM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 49 by Rahvin, posted 06-29-2012 9:51 AM Buzsaw has not replied
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 Message 61 by Dogmafood, posted 07-06-2012 2:17 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 48 of 98 (666635)
06-29-2012 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
06-29-2012 9:40 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
They aren't.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Buzsaw, posted 06-29-2012 9:40 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(4)
Message 49 of 98 (666636)
06-29-2012 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
06-29-2012 9:40 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Only a few do, typically when they have enough money to bypass everyone else in line.
This is of course different from when they have enough medical need to jump to the front.
Other cases include experimental new treatments that happen to only be available in the US. That's rather independent of the insurance debate.
But the incidence of border-crossings for healthcare is wildly overblown. How many in a year is "so many," Buz?

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


(5)
Message 50 of 98 (666637)
06-29-2012 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Buzsaw
06-29-2012 9:35 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Are you unaware that during his campaign, he promised not to raise taxes of earners under a quarter of a million by "one dime"?
But this isn't a tax increase, it's an avoidable tax penalty. The only people who wind up paying the tax penalty are the people who try to foist their health care expenses off on others by showing up to the emergency room without coverage.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 06-29-2012 9:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 51 of 98 (666638)
06-29-2012 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by 1.61803
06-28-2012 4:06 PM


del
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

CRYSTALS!!

This message is a reply to:
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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 52 of 98 (666639)
06-29-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Taq
06-28-2012 6:46 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Taq writes:
I was thinking more of public perception and how many americans are averse to change.
Yes, you are are correct, an aversion to change is normally true. But in this particular case, I believe a majority of Americans wanted the public option. A majority WANTED CHANGE. Apparently Americans were no longer satisfied with paying high premiums and then getting their medical needs turned down by the insurance companies (death panels). Also, the millions of Americans without health care who believe that living in the world's richest nation should have access to a medical system as least as good/accessable as some third world countries, like Cuba.
Unfortunately, Obama made back-door deals with the pharmaceutical and insurance companies. Obama served the 1%'s best interests, not the 99%'s. Ponies WERE gifted.
Taq writes:
It doesn't matter at this point if it is government run or private.
Well, it seems to matter to Obama's masters, the insurance companies.
Edited by dronester, : clarity
Edited by dronester, : more clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Taq, posted 06-28-2012 6:46 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 06-29-2012 10:55 AM dronestar has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 53 of 98 (666647)
06-29-2012 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by dronestar
06-29-2012 10:12 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Yes, you are are correct, an aversion to change is normally true. But in this particular case, I believe a majority of Americans wanted the public option. A majority WANTED CHANGE. Apparently Americans were no longer satisfied with paying high premiums and then getting their medical needs turned down by the insurance companies (death panels).
From the polls I remember the public option was not favored by the public, and Democrats lost seats because of their yes votes on ACA. No Republicans I am aware of lost seats because of their opposition to the bill. I see no way that a socilist system could have been put in place because it is not popular. If it was popular then Democrats would have pushed it. That is the political landscape that I see, but I could be wrong.
Well, it seems to matter to Obama's masters, the insurance companies.
It surely does. Frankly, I think this is going to come down to the states to start their own public option. If these programs are successful then people in other states may consider the idea of a federal program.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by dronestar, posted 06-29-2012 10:12 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 54 of 98 (666648)
06-29-2012 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
06-29-2012 12:03 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
The problem is that once forced to participate in this system, people might find all their fears validated.
Good point. Perhaps this is where a government run system, be it state or federal, can really make headway. They can show people that it is possible to make health care affordable and accessible.
This will also take major concessions from the health care industry. Costs have to be cut. We can not continue to pay twice what other first world nations spend on health care (and only increasing from what I have seen). Private health insurance is only half of the equation. ACA did put measures in that will hopefully cut back on administrative costs, but more needs to be done.

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


(1)
Message 55 of 98 (666654)
06-29-2012 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
06-29-2012 10:55 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Taq writes:
From the polls I remember the public option was not favored by the public,
Maybe it was more volitile/variable than I remember, but I believe polls were at one time reporting 70%. Anyways, here's one from 2009:
quote:
October 20, 2009 - Most support public option for health insurance, poll finds
57 percent of all Americans now favor a public insurance option, while 40 percent oppose it. Support has risen since mid-August, when a bare majority, 52 percent, said they favored it. (In a June Post-ABC poll, support was 62 percent.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/.../10/19/AR2009101902451.html

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 56 of 98 (666708)
06-29-2012 3:03 PM


It looks a lot like CJ Roberts changed his vote at the 11th hour.
Paul Campos, a law professor at the University of Colorado at Bolder, makes a strong argument that Chief Justice Roberts was going to declare Obamacare unconstitutional but switched positions at, or after, the 11th hour.
I definitely agree with his point that the dissent reads more like a majority opinion than a dissent. It's also quite curious that the dissent refers to Justice Ginsberg's concurrence as a dissent.
Intriguing.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 57 of 98 (666823)
06-29-2012 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by subbie
06-29-2012 3:03 PM


Re: It looks a lot like CJ Roberts changed his vote at the 11th hour.
Roberts is a self-serving corporatist, rather than conservative, so he probable saw:
(a) not bad for corporations
(b) a chance to be part of the history of healthcare
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 58 of 98 (666978)
07-01-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Buzsaw
06-29-2012 9:40 AM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
Why then, so many coming across the border for health care, due to the wait in Canada for treatment?
But of course you have no evidence of this.
But I have evidence to refute this.
Link
Link

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 59 of 98 (666987)
07-01-2012 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Theodoric
07-01-2012 5:28 PM


Re: Where does it Take us from Here?
but he saw it on faux ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 60 of 98 (667376)
07-06-2012 1:29 PM


And now, Professor Campos claims a source told him that Justice Roberts actually wrote most of the dissent, as well as the majority opinion. Professor Campos points to two particularly unusual aspects of the dissent. One, it's a joint dissent, as opposed to one authored by one particular Justice then joined by others. Two, it doesn't mention the majority opinion in the first 46 pages, (and never even mentions that it's a dissent in the first 13,000 words) then mentions the majority opinion repeatedly in the last 19 pages.
In the abstract, I'd be quite skeptical of any anonymous leaks from the Supreme Court. It is probably the most leak proof institution in all of government. However, there was undoubtedly something very unusual happening during the drafting process. If the oddities described above are not unprecedented, they are extraordinary in the extreme. And, they are consistent with the claim that Justice Roberts wrote most of the dissent intending it to be a majority opinion, then changed his mind.
Curiouser and curiouser.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

  
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