Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8752 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-30-2017 3:09 AM
132 online now:
CosmicChimp, CRR, PaulK (3 members, 129 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: DeliverUsFromEvolution
Post Volume:
Total: 809,267 Year: 13,873/21,208 Month: 3,355/3,605 Week: 141/556 Day: 3/89 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
9101112
13
14Next
Author Topic:   Original Sin - Scripture and Reason
jar
Member
Posts: 28851
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 181 of 203 (790466)
08-30-2016 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by Phat
08-29-2016 3:15 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

The idea that Jesus paid for our sin is a strong one...I wouldn't throw it away quite yet.

The idea that the suits are picking up the bill is certainly more attractive than what Jesus marketed.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by Phat, posted 08-29-2016 3:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:36 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 182 of 203 (790469)
08-30-2016 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by jar
08-30-2016 1:56 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Did Paul originate this message? If so, it would be hard to indict it---Paul was a Godly man.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 1:56 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 4:50 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28851
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 183 of 203 (790471)
08-30-2016 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
08-30-2016 4:36 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

Did Paul originate this message? If so, it would be hard to indict it---Paul was a Godly man.

I doubt any one person can be said to have originated the message. It certainly was not the main selling point for Paul. He started out as an apocalyptic marketeer selling the sky is falling message and only towards the end of his career did the emphasis change. It clear though that it was the salesmen that originated the idea, not Jesus.

But why would a person being Godly be an obstacle to indictment?


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 4:36 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 5:31 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 184 of 203 (790472)
08-30-2016 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
08-30-2016 4:50 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
But why would a person being Godly be an obstacle to indictment?
I see your point...but am still wary of some of your teachings...after all, you have indicted God Himself before. My question is Who,if anyone is qualified to be a judge?

We are charged to be responsible..OK I get that.

But if the Judge Himself is fair game for indictment, Who is the ultimate authority?

Paul says that no one is righteous. That all have fallen short.

Matthew 7:12 writes:

Do not judge, so that you will not be judged, since you will be judged in the same judgment that you make, and you will be measured by the same standard you apply.

One commentary:
Jesus follows up his warning against judgment with an explanationwe will all be judged by the same measure that we use. If we cannot hold to the standard we use, we have no business applying that standard to others. There are two possible responses to this statement: one, operating under the assumption that no one can possibly live up to a high standard, holds to the interpretation mentioned above that no one should ever judge anyone else, since were all sinners. The second possibility is that we should all amend our own behavior and live properly before exercising judgment and helping others to do the same.

Thus...to indict a godly man requires that we first examine our own behavior...amend it...and live properly before exercising judgement against Paul or anyone else.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 4:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 5:48 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28851
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 185 of 203 (790473)
08-30-2016 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Phat
08-30-2016 5:31 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

My question is Who,if anyone is qualified to be a judge?

According to the Bible stories, each of us is qualified to be a judge and in fact it is part of our duty.

Phat writes:

But if the Judge Himself is fair game for indictment, Who is the ultimate authority?

Reality.

And commentaries are meant to try to get around what the Bible stories actually say.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 5:31 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:40 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 186 of 203 (790476)
08-30-2016 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by jar
08-30-2016 5:48 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
sorry...stop and think. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen...in deed the Creator of Reality itself...to be judged by His own creation?

Im not asking you to tell me what the stories say..(according to your interpretation at least) im asking you to tell me what sense it makes for the Creator to be judged by what He has created?

Also why?

What possible reason would He have had to set it up that way?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 5:48 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 7:33 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28851
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 187 of 203 (790483)
08-30-2016 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
08-30-2016 6:40 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

sorry...stop and think. What sense does it make for the Creator of all seen and unseen...in deed the Creator of Reality itself...to be judged by His own creation?

Im not asking you to tell me what the stories say..(according to your interpretation at least) im asking you to tell me what sense it makes for the Creator to be judged by what He has created?

Also why?

What possible reason would He have had to set it up that way?


Sorry, stop and read.

You say you do not want me to tell you what the stories say yet the only source for any knowledge about the characters in the stories are the stories themselves and the stories actually explain it pretty well.

The God character did not set it up that way and in fact tried to keep it from becoming a fact but failed. The God character simply screwed up and things did not happen according to plan. Once the God character realized what had happened he tried to minimize the damage and threat to himself by denying them immortality.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 08-30-2016 6:40 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 12:24 AM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 188 of 203 (790507)
08-31-2016 12:24 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
08-30-2016 7:33 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
You say you are a Creedal Christian. Tell me how the Creator of all seen and unseen can fail.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 08-30-2016 7:33 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by Asgara, posted 08-31-2016 12:47 AM Phat has responded

  
Asgara
Member
Posts: 1780
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


(2)
Message 189 of 203 (790508)
08-31-2016 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Phat
08-31-2016 12:24 AM


Re: Original Sin Remix
He put a couple of toddlers in front of something and told them not to touch...when they inevitably did.... he panicked and kicked them out of the garden before they got hold of the OTHER thing he didn't want touched.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 12:24 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 2:37 AM Asgara has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 190 of 203 (790513)
08-31-2016 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Asgara
08-31-2016 12:47 AM


Re: Original Sin Remix
this makes no sense...for mere humans to judge God as failing...seems to me that WE are the ones deceived...

I can understand us honestly reading the stories and judging from that information alone...but IF God really is the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is not simply some bumbling rookie on his first day on the job!

I try and look at the big picture...honestly. I talk with lots of people having many different beliefs. I get why people dont like most fundies. I understand the arguments that the secular web presents...many of which are well thought out logical arguments, though the common denominator seems to be that some people can easily be convinced that God does not exist...at least as portrayed in the Bible. Others of us claim to have had subjective experiences and have rightly or wrongly convinced ourselves of the reality of God...

When I meet people on the internet such as you,Ms. Asgara...I sense a grand humanity to your life and no longer objectify you as one of "them"....and I prayed when you got cancer...I genuinely want you to live---and live eternally in some way or another. I guess its too much for me to hope that everyone sees life the way I see it...perhaps we were never meant to agree...I dunno...

I just dont understand how you and jar jar can so casually dismiss any God of scripture...especially him since he claims to be a creedal christian. Of course, maybe you hope against hope that I see the light the way you understand it...so in conclusion, have a great week!


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Asgara, posted 08-31-2016 12:47 AM Asgara has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 08-31-2016 9:01 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 08-31-2016 11:51 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 28851
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


(2)
Message 191 of 203 (790521)
08-31-2016 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
08-31-2016 2:37 AM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

I can understand us honestly reading the stories and judging from that information alone...but IF God really is the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is not simply some bumbling rookie on his first day on the job!

Yet that is exactly what the God of scripture is described as, a bumbling rookie who learn on the job, often makes mistakes, is fearful, angry, makes rash decisions, acts irrationally just to prove a point, cheats and reneges on his promises.

Phat writes:

I just dont understand how you and jar jar can so casually dismiss any God of scripture...especially him since he claims to be a creedal christian.

Do you know what a creed is?

I dismiss the Gods of scripture based solely on scripture. I read what is written and believe it actually says what the words say and I do not confuse what is written with what I wish had been written.

Let's take an honest look at the God of scripture.

He creates an attractive nuisance. Then he creates a man and some animals. He decides that the man needs a help meet but has no idea what that might be so he starts bringing animals for the guy to try out. None of them work (although the guy was pretty satisfied with the sheep) so he puts the guy to sleep, takes one of the guys ribs without even telling him and makes a woman.

Now the two folk are wandering around the garden and the god character says don't do this but when he was creating them he didn't give them the capability of knowing they need to obey him so instead he tries threats; "If you do that you will drop dead on the spot". Well neither of them have a clue what drop dead means and when they meet up with a friendly snake, the snake tells them the truth. "Go on; if you do that you ain't gonna drop dead. In fact your gonna be more like the BIG guy." So they do that and they don't drop dead and they are more like the BIG guy. But Big guy gets scared and is afraid they will do what he already told them they could do so he gets made at them, punishes them, throws them out of the garden and say "Get the troops and seal this place off and make damn sure no one ever gets back in".

Later a guy is walking along and meets a stranger and the stranger starts wrestling with the guy. The guy doesn't know it but it's the Big guy again. They wrestling all night and the Big guy can't make the Big guy can't win so he cheats and breaks the guys hip; but the guy still ain't saying "UNCLE". So finally the Big guy stops the fight and gives the guy a new name. But does the Big guy say "Sorry about your hip. I shouldn't have tried to cheat." Nope, not a word, just a new name.

So pharaoh has some slaves and they want out. They are the Big guys worshipers so he sends a hit squad to give pharaoh a message he can't refuse. Well the message works and pharaoh says "Okay, just take them and get out." But Big guy says, "Oh no, I haven't finished yet" and changes the guys mind. The Big guy sends another messsage he can't refuse and pharaoh does not refuse it and says "Okay, just take them and get out." But Big guy says, "Oh no, I haven't finished yet" and changes the guys mind.

This goes on and on until pharaoh says "Enough of this. Go already."

So they go.

But Big guy says, "Oh no, I haven't finished yet" and changes the guys mind and this time Big guy doesn't send another message, he snuffs the guy and all of the guy's supporters. And that's how Michael became Don Corleone.

There was this guy who really like the Big guy. He was always talking about the Big guy and annoying the hell outta all around. The Big guy was having a cuppa with his buddy and right hand man Satan and comments on how the guy really like Big guy. But Satan says "No wonder. You always did like him best and give him all the new toys." So Big guy says "Tell you what. I bet even if I take all his toys away he will still like me so you go take all his toys away." So Satan takes all the toys away and everybody is saying "Boy you musta done something really bad." and the guy is like "I didn't do anything but I just need to accept that all the toys are gone." and they are like "Wow, what did you do?" and he is like "I didn't do nothin'." And so Satan says "Boss you were right" so Big guy says "Yup, It's good being the Boss. And I don't even have to tell the guy I'm sorry."

The point Phat is that the Gods of scripture are just a human constructs reflecting what people of an era and culture thought a God would be like. They created Gods that were like the strong man, or prince, or tyrant or friend or whatever struck their corporate fancy.

If Christianity is to have any relevance and value then Christians need to understand it as a path, a calling and job description.

GOD, if GOD exists will not be like any of the Gods we have invented.


My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios     My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 2:37 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 192 of 203 (790544)
08-31-2016 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Phat
08-31-2016 2:37 AM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

... IF God really is the Creator of all seen and unseen, He is not simply some bumbling rookie on his first day on the job!


The God of the Bible clearly IS a bumbling rookie - or a vicious bastard who couldn't care less about the suffering of his creation.

You need to get your story straight. Either your God is some woo-woo fantastic Super-God or he's the goober in the Bible. You can't just keep switching back and forth at your convenience.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Phat, posted 08-31-2016 2:37 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:22 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 193 of 203 (790603)
09-01-2016 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by ringo
08-31-2016 11:51 AM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Either your God is some woo-woo fantastic Super-God or he's the goober in the Bible. You can't just keep switching back and forth at your convenience.
I have never claimed to switch back and forth. I'll go with the Absolute. Or a you call it---the woo. I'll also agree that the Bible simply reflects stories of how humans relate to this woo. Of how this woo is personal. Of how this Super God was made man. Of how this man lived among us.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ringo, posted 08-31-2016 11:51 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 09-01-2016 12:49 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 194 of 203 (790605)
09-01-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Phat
09-01-2016 12:22 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
Phat writes:

I have never claimed to switch back and forth.


I didn't say you claimed it. I'm saying that you do it.

Phat writes:

I'll also agree that the Bible simply reflects stories of how humans relate to this woo. Of how this woo is personal. Of how this Super God was made man. Of how this man lived among us.


There you go again. Are the stories "news" or are they just stories?

Is there any point to the stories beyond merely recording daily events? Do they have any value beyond wrapping fish?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 12:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 09-01-2016 3:17 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 195 of 203 (790612)
09-01-2016 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by ringo
09-01-2016 12:49 PM


Re: Original Sin Remix
ringo writes:

Is there any point to the stories beyond merely recording daily events? Do they have any value beyond wrapping fish?

Of course many stories have value beyond wrapping fish.
Lets take one example.
Matt 16:13-20 writes:

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Jesus is telling Peter that Peters revelation as to who Jesus was was not found in some story of human derived legend. Now...granted, ringo...you could say that the story of Long John Silver described him as a pirate from another dimension...so the value of the story is what we assign to it. I can argue presuppositionally that the story is truth...but logically the story is only as true as you want it to be. You may find more value in wrapping fish than in being a fisherman that not only carries spare change but actually has some valuable parables and stories to share with others.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by ringo, posted 09-01-2016 12:49 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by ringo, posted 09-02-2016 11:47 AM Phat has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
9101112
13
14Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017