Why would God write a book of lies and why would you worship such a being?

Everyone - Please see (again even) my message 2.The "lies" or "errors" in the Bible are not the issue in this topic. This is a ""there are errors", now what?" sort of topic.Please try to work with FEY and the moderators, not against us. Maybe even take a break until FEY posts his 3rd message.Gotta do a radio show now.AdminnemooseusEdited by Adminnemooseus, : Change an "is" to an "are".

If I bound the gospels in the same volume as a copy of Alice In Wonderland, would that make them less credible? If I bound them in the same volume as something readily verifiable, such as the phone book, would that make them more credible?Well then --- the Bible is only "the same book" in that fairly weak sense. One guy wrote one bit, one guy wrote another, another guy wrote another, and so on. This is why the Bible is written in such a hodgepodge of forms and in three different languages. Then one guy decided that they should be compiled together and called "the Bible", and another guy decided that different works should go into the compilation and different works should be left out, and a third guy disagreed with the first two ...So ... So ...who's "the author"?Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

The writers of the New Testament quote just about every book of the Old Testament. The writers of the New Testaments ask such question as "What doth the scriptures saith?". They treat all the books of the Old Testament as one whole work and equally authoritative. Those same writers tell me that Christ died for my sins and that sacrifice is wholly sufficient for my salvation. If they are wrong about all the books of the bible being equally authoritative, why should I believe that are not wrong about the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice? God. Why? When Peter tried to prevent Christ from dying on the cross, Jesus replied "Get thee behind me Satan". Most people would say that Peter was the author of the words saying that Christ should avoid dying. According to Jesus himself, Satan was the author of those words.

If that's your reason, then you're right; you shouldn't.

Hi
Glad you're back.How many sermons have you heard referring to the "Good Samaritan" or the "Prodigal Son". If you were to take the sermon at face value you would conclude that it was actual events that were being referred to. Even now it is logical to refer to Adam as being a specific historical individual. It is done in order to represent a greater truth. Just because the Hebrew Scriptures are constantly being referred to in the NT does not mean that they were understood to be historical. Even Josephus when writing about the Torah said that Moses wrote with great metaphors. According to the Gospels the message is not about you and your salvation. Salvation is actually just a side issue. The Gospel message is that Jesus has established His Kingdom on Earth. This Kingdom is led by a Servant King who calls on His followers to serve the creation lovingly. Remember Christ's command is to love God and love neighbour, and even further to love our enemies.Remember what Paul says in Galations 5. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control."The message is not just about me and my salvation. It is as a Christian that I have been given a job to do, which is to reflect God's love to the world. The NT is very clear when it tells us that we aren't to judge. It is God who judges. As Paul says in 1 Cor 4.,

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I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.

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This message can be understood from the Bible without it all being read as inerrant. As I said the story of the "Good Samaritan" is just as authoritative whether it actually happened or not. The story of the "Great Flood" tells us that in the end God loves us and doesn't give up on us. That is an authoritative message whether it actually happened or not.God is not dependent on the Bible. The religion is called Christianity. It is supposed to be Christ centred not Bible centred. The question that essentially needs to be answered is whether Jesus is alive or dead. If Jesus was truly resurrected then we are on the right track. If Jesus was not bodily resurrected then as Paul tells us our faith is in vain. If Jesus was resurrected it is true whether or not the flood is historical, whether or not there was such a place as the Garden of Eden etc.There is no certainty. If there was certainty then we would not be able to freely choose to have hearts that love unselfishly. There is considerable ambiguity and uncertainty in the Bible and there is nothing wrong with that. Even the Bible tells us that Jesus is the word of God. It's Christianity not Biblianity.Welcome back.

I'm puzzled that you cannot see this as metaphor. If your close friend said to you something similar to "Get thee behind me Satan", you surely would not take that as intended literally.

My friend is not an eternal being and the creator of the universe either and has never met Satan in person.

Actually, the salvation of God's elect is the central focus of the gospels.

I would be trusting that God is not a liar. Lunatics go around saying God told me this or that or to build this church. Oral Roberts used to be famous for such proclamations and I think his son rectal did as well. The point is that anyone can make such a claim. God tells us that he speaks to us in his word. If his word is untrustworthy then so is he.Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.Edited by foreveryoung, : No reason given.

If they are wrong about that, maybe they are wrong about the need to be saved? Why Assume the need to be saved first, and then assume Jesus' sacrifice to be insufficien?. Why not assume there's no need for salvation, see the lessons Jesus taught and learn from them?

In one sense it is about being saved, but the point about being saved is that one is saved for a purpose. The purpose is to reflect God's love into the creation. If you make all about you personally getting on the right side of God you have turned Christ's message of unselfish sacrificial love completely around and made it all about self love.I suggest you don't just read the Bible with the mindset that is preached within your specific church body. Please read what it actually says. Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chap's 5 to 7. This for example is from Matthew 7.

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15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

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There is nothing in this that talks about getting your theology right so that you will get on the good side of God. The gospel message is the message of the "Kingdom of God" or in Mathew "The Kingdom of Heaven" being established by the Messiah and the kingdom is all about having hearts that love unselfishly and sacrificially.When your understanding of the Bible is Christ centred as opposed to being Bible centred then the Bible comes into focus and it can be used by God in the way Paul talks about in 2nd Timothy.If the Bible is understood properly God can and will speak through it and you no longer have to rationalize the loving God we see incarnate in Jesus with the god that wants to have his people stoning to death some poor sap who picked up firewood on the Sabbath.Does it really make sense that a loving God would create us with reason then ask us to throw reason out the window when it comes to understanding Him and what He desires of us?

Hi foreveryoung, Just because they quote the OT does not imply that they regard it as one single work. At the time the NT was written, the older scriptures would not have been regarded as a single book, as they sometimes - erroneously - are today.Further, if mere quoting of a scriptural passage is supposed to mean that God approves the entire work, then you have problems, as the NT also quotes the apocryphal Book of Enoch;

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It was to them that Enoch, the seventh in descent from Adam, directed his prophecy when he said: I saw the Lord come with his myriads of angels, to bring all men to judgement and to convict all the godless of all the godless deeds they had committed, and of all the defiant words which godless sinners had spoken against him" (Jude 14- 15).

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The author of this epistle quotes the Book of Enoch there and attributes it to the biblical patriarch himself. He seems to approve of it and regard it as sacred and prophetic. Does this mean that it is in some way directed by God? If so, it's problematic to say the least, since 1 Enoch is an explicitly flat-Earth book, full of craziness and error.What do you say; is 1 Enoch "God-breathed"? If not, then how can the same kind of argument support the divinity of the OT?Mutate and Survive

Well, that got circular quickly."God tells us in the Koran that he speaks to us through the Koran. If the Koran is untrustworthy than so is he."So are you going to(a) become a Muslim?
(b) call God a liar?
(c) stop employing logical fallacies?

Until the scrolls were written, there were no Holy Scriptures (writings); but people worshiped God.The story of Abraham shows us that people believed in God before anything was written in a scroll. They didn't rely on a book to tell them what to do or believe.Since Judaism is the foundation of early Christianity, I look to Jewish History for more insight. From Jewish history we learn that the Jews had the written law and an oral law. Storytelling came before writing. Fiction can bring a teaching to life. It isn't a lie, it gives people a means to visualize.That's why I have no problem with fiction in the Bible. I try to understand what the author was trying to impart to his audience.Even when the NT writers quote from a fictional writing, I try to understand the point the writer is making to his audience. That's the take away.I also try to understand the literary devices employed by the writers, such as metaphors and hyperbole. These don't translate into lies, just creative ways to make a point and make the info more memorable.Since people believed in God before the existence of Holy Scriptures, I see no problem with still believing in God even with the knowledge that the Holy Scriptures contain storytelling.Now I do have a problem with dogma and tradition that claim to be based on what the Biblical writers were saying or teaching and it isn't. In my opinion, that is misleading.

None of the above. You have to decide for yourself which book is more internally consistent and which matches what you understand a holy and righteous God to be. There can only be one true word from an eternal being if the sources claiming to be that word are in indisputable contradiction. I am not going to call God a liar even if there appears to be fiction in his word. Either I do not understand the style of literature being employed or it happened like it said and we don't know everything yet. Job did not understand why his world was crumbling around him and his friends told him to curse God. He refused to do so because he knew that he could not trust his own senses when it came to God. God finally proved himself to Job in the end, and Job was not crazy for trusting God.