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Author Topic:   New Human Fossils found
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 5 of 31 (670237)
08-10-2012 6:18 PM


right on
Really the only part of evolution that really interests me, is human evolution, I am not sure what kind of evolutionist that makes me, but yeah, great looking out on the article.
the only comment I have is: they specifically mention a time when there were e species of Homo alive, yet when you look at the graph it clearly shows a time period when there were FOUR (erectus, ergaster, habilis, and rudolfensis). Strikes me as weird to mention 3 as news especially when we think the youngest 3 (sapiens, neanderthalensis, and erectus) lived at the same time.
weird.

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 08-10-2012 11:48 PM Artemis Entreri has replied
 Message 7 by onifre, posted 08-12-2012 11:49 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 8 of 31 (670313)
08-12-2012 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Blue Jay
08-10-2012 11:48 PM


Re: right on
And, given current evidence, Neanderthal is probably more appropriately regarded as a subspecies of H. sapiens.
I am not a geneticist but I am not sure about that. I think Sapiens and Neaderthalensis are decendants of Heidelbergensis, making them more on the same level rather than one being a sub species of another.
But, the difference here is that ergaster, rudolfensis and habilis were living at the same time and in the same region (southern/eastern Africa), whereas Neanderthal, sapiens and erectus were separated geographically.
I see not geographical difference. I think sapiens encountered both, and I know Erectus were in Europe, but did the other two exist when they were is more the real question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Blue Jay, posted 08-10-2012 11:48 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Blue Jay, posted 08-12-2012 6:37 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 9 of 31 (670314)
08-12-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by onifre
08-12-2012 11:49 AM


Re: right on
The mechanics of evolution are the same for humans and every other animal. Whatever directed human evolution, be it environmental pressure or sexual selection, etc, works the same for all species. So studying one species kind of covers all species.
Unless you meant, you prefer the natural history of humans versus, say, ants? And as human history goes, this is a great find if it all checks out.
right. I just like these stories, and this branch of it more. I would rather read about "cavemen", than some "ancient lizard".

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 Message 7 by onifre, posted 08-12-2012 11:49 AM onifre has not replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 16 of 31 (670367)
08-13-2012 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Blue Jay
08-12-2012 6:37 PM


Re: right on
Homo heidelbergensis was likely also the same species. Neanderthal genes have been found in most modern humans, indicating that some level of interbreeding occurred: this suggests that Neanderthal and sapiens are closely-related enough to be considered the same species.
is this in the same way that most canines can reproduce, even though they are not the same species?
It all depends on where you want to draw your arbitrary lines.
of course, I absolutely agree, and I am not trying to argue really or disagree with you on purpose, I just have different thoughts (my arbitrary line is elsewhere). I tend to side with more diversity in species.
I think the only "European" Homo erectus known is from the Caucasus, and it was from well before the first Neanderthals or heidelbergines began to appear there.
once again it depends on where you want to split the hairs. Boxgrove Man for instance is either Homo Erectus or very early Heidelbergensis, depends. They both had the same acheulean tool kit.
what about Pakefield? Error
And, it isn't about whether the three species ever encountered each other. Homo erectus evolved in Africa and expanded into Asia. Meanwhile, heidelbergensis evolved in Africa, then expanded into Europe, and gradually diverged into a European form (neanderthalensis) and an African form (sapiens). At some later point in time, sapiens expanded and came into contact with the other species, but only after they had been partially isolated for some time, and had already evolved into distinct "species" during their isolation.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I think erectus came to europe and then evolved into heidelbergensis. More due to the pakefield dates and the consensus on the earliest heidelbergensis dates. I agree its arbitrary and spitting hairs, but then why else are we here talking about this stuff?
By comparison, habilis, rudolfensis and ergaster not only lived in the same location at the same time, but also apparently evolved into distinct "species" in the same location and at around the same time. This is called "sympatric speciation": something other than geography was a barrier to interbreeding between these "species."
ok now we are getting somewhere, yes this is very interesting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Blue Jay, posted 08-12-2012 6:37 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Blue Jay, posted 08-14-2012 11:32 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4247 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 21 of 31 (670422)
08-14-2012 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Blue Jay
08-14-2012 11:32 AM


Re: right on
The three "species" found in Kenya around 1.7 Mya showed a similar pattern of coexistence, but on a much smaller geographical scale. This implies that there must have been a different type of mechanism isolating these "species" from each other. For example, they may have preferred different habitats, or they may have evolved in different sub-regions within the same region.
do you think it was a pattern of coexistence or one species supplanting another?
if coexistence is the answer then I would guess they occupied similar but slightly diffenrt niches or share a large habitat. All I can compare it to in my amatuer thoughts on this is three similar and definately related species that live in the similar Kenyan Region today: All Canines, Lycaon pictus, Canis mesomelas, and Otocyon megalotis African Wild Dog, Black-backed Jackal, and Bat-Eared Fox respectively. now you can say they are not all part of the same Genus like the homo example, but they all live in the same habitat and have a similar function of semi-omivourus predator, most of the time scavenger (probably like earlier hominids), I am not saying one way or the other as this is very interesting information, and great news. I just feel like animals that are so similar they share a genus classification would be interbreeding or supplanting each other like the case of the North American Red Wolf, instead of coexisting. but I guess that is my bias.
your location says Kentucky so I would think you live in or close to former red wolf habitat (though they could still probably exist in eastern KY). you have the Red Wolf, the Red fox, and the Coyote. two Canis and Vulpes. the Canis can breed so interchangably that The Red "Wolf" may be nothing more than a hybrid of the coyote and the gray wolf (A genome-wide perspective on the evolutionary history of enigmatic wolf-like canids - PMC). Which kind of ties into the questions that heathen is asking.
I don't know myself, it will be interesting, I look forward to further research and future conclusions.

This message is a reply to:
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