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Author Topic:   Origin of viruses
Kiddo
Junior Member (Idle past 1578 days)
Posts: 4
From: India
Joined: 08-10-2012


Message 1 of 24 (670755)
08-18-2012 2:20 PM


How did viruses come into existence???
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 08-18-2012 4:39 PM Kiddo has responded
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 2 of 24 (670756)
08-18-2012 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kiddo
08-18-2012 2:20 PM


This is just a question rather than a debate topic, but if there is a creationist position on this issue then I'm sure a debate will emerge without going to the trouble of framing the issue more concisely, so I'm going to promote this as is.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Admin
Director
Posts: 12389
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 24 (670758)
08-18-2012 4:40 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Origin of viruses thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15467
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


(2)
Message 4 of 24 (670760)
08-18-2012 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
08-18-2012 4:39 PM


This is just a question rather than a debate topic, but if there is a creationist position on this issue ...

What do you mean, if? There always is. It's always the same one. God made them by magic.


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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(2)
Message 5 of 24 (670762)
08-18-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kiddo
08-18-2012 2:20 PM


No-one knows, nor is it clear that they share a common origin. There is some reason to believe some viruses predate cellular life but since viruses leave no fossils we have no direct evidence to work with.
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foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 6 of 24 (670777)
08-18-2012 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
08-18-2012 5:28 PM


What do you mean, if? There always is. It's always the same one. God made them by magic.

How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?


This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18240
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 7 of 24 (670780)
08-19-2012 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Dr Jack
08-18-2012 6:17 PM


RNA world
Hi Mr Jack

No-one knows, nor is it clear that they share a common origin. There is some reason to believe some viruses predate cellular life ...

IIRC, there was some work on virus RNA\DNA that showed homologies between viruses in all branches of cellular life, indication a shared common ancestor.

Indeed there is the hypothesis that they are left overs from the RNA world before DNA and cellular live evolved, that they represent a more primitive form of life between pre-biotic chemical evolution and cellular life.

... but since viruses leave no fossils we have no direct evidence to work with.

Which leaves us with genetic evidence and (informed?) speculation.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Dr Jack, posted 08-18-2012 6:17 PM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(1)
Message 8 of 24 (670785)
08-19-2012 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by RAZD
08-19-2012 12:02 AM


Re: RNA world
Hi RAZD,

I'm going by Koonin et al (2006) The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells (open access). Which states:

quote:
Comparative genomics provides no evidence of a monophyletic origin of all viruses. Many virus groups simply share no common genes, effectively, ruling out any conventional notion of common origin. ... For example, most of the viruses of hyperthermophilic crenarchaea have literally no genes in common with any other viruses, whereas RNA viruses share with DNA viruses and plasmids that replicate via the rolling circle mechanism only extremely distant domains in their respective replication proteins.

Which leaves us with genetic evidence and (informed?) speculation.

Absolutely, but let's not confuse coherent hypothesis with directly evidenced theory.


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 Message 7 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 12:02 AM RAZD has responded

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18240
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 9 of 24 (670786)
08-19-2012 5:19 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Dr Jack
08-19-2012 4:33 AM


Re: RNA world
Hey Mr Jack,

I'm going by Koonin et al (2006) The ancient Virus World and evolution of cells (open access). Which states:

Cool thanks.

btw -- do you know if viruses have ever been responsible for beneficial gene sequences? or do we only get deleterious and then neutralized ones.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 4:33 AM Dr Jack has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Dr Jack, posted 08-19-2012 5:38 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3500
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


(1)
Message 10 of 24 (670787)
08-19-2012 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-19-2012 5:19 AM


Re: RNA world
Hi RAZD,

btw -- do you know if viruses have ever been responsible for beneficial gene sequences? or do we only get deleterious and then neutralized ones.

Yes. Genes vital for placental formation are derived from retroviruses. Hang on, I'll dig out a source...

Black et al (2010) Endogenous Retroviruses in Trophoblast Differentiation and Placental Development

Edited by Mr Jack, : Added reference


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Tangle
Member
Posts: 4397
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 11 of 24 (670789)
08-19-2012 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by foreveryoung
08-18-2012 11:20 PM


How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?

Because that's what magic is.

noun
[mass noun]
the power of apparently influencing events by using mysterious or supernatural forces:
suddenly, as if by magic, the doors start to open


Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18240
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 12 of 24 (670790)
08-19-2012 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
08-19-2012 6:14 AM


Hi Tangle,

(foreveryoung): How is it magic if the personality that brought the laws of physics into existence and is the source of all energy is able to manipulate those laws and energies to his own ends?

Because that's what magic is.

And if they did it all at the formation of the universe ... how would you know?

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : splg


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tangle, posted 08-19-2012 6:14 AM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 08-19-2012 5:33 PM RAZD has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 298 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 13 of 24 (670814)
08-19-2012 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
08-19-2012 6:18 AM


And if they did it all at the formation of the universe

They?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2012 6:18 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18240
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 14 of 24 (670817)
08-19-2012 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by onifre
08-19-2012 5:33 PM


Hi onifre

They?

The accepted collective term for he/she/it/they these days.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by onifre, posted 08-19-2012 5:33 PM onifre has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15485
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 15 of 24 (670842)
08-20-2012 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tangle
08-19-2012 6:14 AM


That's not magic! That's just God being God.

--Percy


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