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Author Topic:   Atheists control science
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 74 of 124 (671596)
08-27-2012 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Granny Magda
08-27-2012 6:38 AM


Re: Scientists control science
Hi, Granny Magda.
Granny Magda writes:
Does he imagine that we are too lazy to check? Did he perhaps simply stop reading after he found the bit that he wanted? I cannot say.
I might be too lazy to check. That, or too apathetic. I mean, he was quoting About.com.
Granny Magda writes:
In actual fact, I have never met a genuine militant atheist.
I have. At least, I've met a guy that everybody else seems to think is a militant atheist. I've heard him mock religion a lot. He makes fun of me, too (Mormons and polygamy, you know), but I take it all as jokes, and I make fun of his hair, so we get along just fine.
When we had to choose one of the fake grant proposals we would fund, he picked mine. But, make no mistake, he did it militantly!

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Granny Magda, posted 08-27-2012 6:38 AM Granny Magda has seen this message but not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 89 of 124 (671683)
08-29-2012 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by crashfrog
08-29-2012 6:42 AM


Re: Scientists control science
Hi, Crash.
crashfrog writes:
I don't know a single scientist over the age of 45 who isn't a Rush Limbaugh listener, who doesn't espouse just the most brain-dead politics despite their intelligence in any other field.
This hasn't been my experience. I work in an agricultural department, where conservatism is more the norm than in other areas of the biological sciences, and I still think at least 75% of the faculty are left-leaning. I think even the biology department at BYU, where faculty have to be Mormons, was (slightly) left-leaning (though politics was kind of a taboo subject there).
Admittedly, I'm still young and relatively new to the scientific community, so I may very well have a skewed perspective, but what Coyote says seems to hold so far: liberals are common and vocal at scientific conferences, while conservatives are rare and silent.
Certainly, I think "bash anyone and anything to the right of Lenin" is hyperbole, but I don't doubt that that's how it feels to conservative scientists: I've heard the bashing on multiple occasions. Sure, I don't blame a conspiracy of atheists and "lefties" for the lack of political diversity in science, but, I also don't think atheists and "lefties" are perfectly innocent in this, either.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by crashfrog, posted 08-29-2012 6:42 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 08-29-2012 12:13 PM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 91 by roxrkool, posted 08-29-2012 12:19 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 94 of 124 (671769)
08-30-2012 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by NoNukes
08-29-2012 12:13 PM


Re: Scientists control science
Hi, NoNukes.
NoNukes writes:
So what role would you assign to atheist and lefties for chasing conservatives out of science so that only 6% of the scientists identify themselves as Republican?
I don't know. Just working from my limited experience and observations, it seems very likely that conservative scientists would be handicapped in their ability to socialize at conferences, in their ability to drum up collaborations with other scientists, and in the likelihood that they will get friendly, favorable reviews on papers they submit for publication (because they would have fewer friends in the community).
All of this could result in conservative scientists having difficulty meeting requirements for tenure, and having difficulty in attaining a high standing within the community. But, I don't know that this is the case: you'd have to ask some actual, conservative scientists, like Coyote, if they had ever experienced this.
Since Coyote claims to have experienced this, I feel like the matter deserves some actual consideration. Of course, we need a sample size of more than one, so do you know of a way to find some more conservative scientists and poll them about their experiences as a political minority in the sciences?
NoNukes writes:
So what could possibly explain the left leaning of the biology department, given the taboo on politics? Surely not the campus environment.
In this case, it's probably driven by peer pressure from within the Mormon community. Even though Mormons claim to value education and science, there is a lot of pressure in the community for people to stay away from academia and anything else liberal (they even had to use the word "Humanities" instead of "Liberal Arts" in order to not scare away potential donors).
The only Mormons that typically go into science are the ones that are more detached socially from the main crowd in the first place. So, individuals with low social tendencies or comparatively "liberal" politics are disproportionately represented.
NoNukes writes:
I'm quite skeptical that any of those excuses contribute significantly to the dearth of conservatives in the sciences. If you have even anecdotal evidence suggesting otherwise, let's hear it.
Again, I don't know that these excuses contribute significantly, and I'm not sure how to test it. Maybe we could poll people who didn't go into science and ask them why they didn't go into science?
I do have a couple of anecdotes, though. First, I'm pretty sure we can attribute the dearth of conservatives on EvC to the way they were treated by atheists and "lefties" while here. Whether or not that's a bad thing, I'll let you decide on your own, but I think we can all agree that they didn't leave because they were convinced that they were wrong.
Second, I know that applicants to my advisor's lab are screened for how well their personality and opinions mesh with the other members of the lab (though, obviously, conservatism isn't the only deciding factor), and that many other labs do the same thing. From this, it seems pretty straightforward to predict that people with unpopular opinions would have a hard time getting a graduate position in my field. I don't have evidence for this, but it seems reasonable.
NoNukes writes:
I tend to think dwise1's tongue in cheek comment is at least partly on the mark and partially explains the lack of diversity among science. While a scientist might well identify and hold conservative values and even vote for Republican candidates, large parts of the Republican platform are anti-science, and I just cannot see how very many scientists would identify with such a platform. For example, the number of science who reject man-made climate change must surely be a tiny number.
Is there evidence for this position? I would be very interested in seeing it.
Edited by Blue Jay, : "having difficult"

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by NoNukes, posted 08-29-2012 12:13 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2012 2:36 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2688 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 124 of 124 (672158)
09-04-2012 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by NoNukes
08-30-2012 2:36 PM


Re: Scientists control science
Hi, NoNukes.
Sorry for the delay: I went on vacation for the weekend.
NoNukes writes:
And you think that, rather than the subject matter of biology, which essentially requires accepting evolution, is responsible for directing Mormons away from biology?
Yes, I do. Certainly, the subject matter is also a hang up, but, I observed (both as a student and as a teacher) that students were more willing to admit acceptance of evolution in private conversations than they were in class polls.
That tells me that it's the peer pressure that determines what they say, not the actual subject matter itself.
-----
NoNukes writes:
I didn't note Coyote making such a claim. He discusses some rudeness at conferences, but not much else.
He also said it was a turn-off for students who might have been good scientists. I assumed he was speaking from experience: as in, he knows students who left the sciences for this reason. Perhaps I assumed too much: perhaps I was letting my personal acquaintance with other conservative scientists determine how I was interpreting Coyote's comments.
-----
NoNukes writes:
I'll note that ridicule of creationists is done by even the few right leaning scientific people here. Even Buzsaw has been known to ridicule YECs. Do you really want to equate creationism with conservatism?
I didn't intend to speak only about creationists: we've had people leave over political and social topics, as well. But, now that you mention it, I've probably overstated the case here. Forget this example.
-----
NoNukes writes:
Evidence for what exactly? Is there a question about the percentage of scientists who accept human-driven climate change, or are you looking for something else?
Sorry: I quoted too much. I didn't mean to include that line about global warming in the quote box. I was asking for evidence for the position that conservatives avoid science because of the money.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2012 2:36 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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