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Author Topic:   The $5,000,000 ID Research Challenge
Jackal32
Junior Member (Idle past 945 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 03-10-2014


Message 226 of 285 (735426)
08-14-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Taq
08-30-2012 12:39 PM


The hardware is the software
I would spend the $5M on researching the software in our cells. My "conjecture": The source cited below states that there may be as many as 10,000 types of proteins in a cell -- Scientists estimate that each of your cells contains about 10 billion protein molecules of approximately 10,000 different varieties. SOURCE: National Institute of General Medical Sciences. Inside the Cell Chapter 2 Cells 101: Business Basics by Alison Davis --. Each of these proteins is unique in structure and each have a role to play in the cell. It appears that the structure determines the role. This role is akin to software. I suggest that the protein’s hardware (structure) determines its software (role in the cell) – and that software could not have originated spontaneously, it had to be programmed into the hardware. In effect, the hardware is the software.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Taq, posted 08-30-2012 12:39 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2014 11:57 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded
 Message 228 by ringo, posted 08-14-2014 11:58 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded
 Message 229 by RAZD, posted 08-15-2014 7:29 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded
 Message 230 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-15-2014 11:03 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded
 Message 231 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 4:13 PM Jackal32 has not yet responded
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11701
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 227 of 285 (735427)
08-14-2014 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
that software could not have originated spontaneously, it had to be programmed into the hardware

The chemistry behind protein synthesis is fairly well understood, and it does happen spontaneously.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Jackal32, posted 08-14-2014 11:43 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by herebedragons, posted 08-16-2014 9:31 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13622
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 228 of 285 (735428)
08-14-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
Jackal32 writes:

I suggest that the protein’s hardware (structure) determines its software (role in the cell) – and that software could not have originated spontaneously, it had to be programmed into the hardware. In effect, the hardware is the software.


If the hardware could have originated spontaneously - and we have no reason to think it couldn't - then the "software" would have automatically originated at the same tme.

So what do you actually want to do with the research grant?

Edited by ringo, : Splling.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Jackal32, posted 08-14-2014 11:43 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18959
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 229 of 285 (735440)
08-15-2014 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
Welcome to the fray Jackal32,

... . I suggest that the protein’s hardware (structure) determines its software (role in the cell) – and that software could not have originated spontaneously, it had to be programmed into the hardware. ...

This statement does not follow logically from your argument, but seems to be just an opinion placed as if it were a conclusion.

On the other hand we can see that many different proteins are involved, and we also see that selection is a systematic process that eliminates processes that don't benefit the survival and reproduction of the individual, thus resulting in a "spontaneous" (if that word can be used to cover multiple generations) selection of those systems that produce beneficial proteins.

... The source cited below states that there may be as many as 10,000 types of proteins in a cell -- Scientists estimate that each of your cells contains about 10 billion protein molecules of approximately 10,000 different varieties. ...

In a cell structure that has been subject to evolution for over 3.5 billion years. You are looking at a result of a whole lot of selection, not a suddenly new product.

I would spend the $5M on researching the software in our cells. ...

In what way? In the way it is being studied in microbiology or some new process of investigation?

Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Jackal32, posted 08-14-2014 11:43 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 230 of 285 (735444)
08-15-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
Apart from anything else, your use of the words hardware and software are just bizarre even as metaphors. No, the role of a protein in a cell is not "akin to software".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Jackal32, posted 08-14-2014 11:43 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded

  
mram10
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 231 of 285 (735488)
08-16-2014 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
Jackal32,
First, welcome. You will learn a lot here, while feeling like you are swimming upstream if you debate against evolutionary theory

Dr. Adequate is the resident sarcasm expert. Think of the two older guys in the balcony on the muppet show


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 240 by Theodoric, posted 08-17-2014 10:56 AM mram10 has not yet responded
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 08-17-2014 2:30 PM mram10 has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 232 of 285 (735491)
08-16-2014 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by mram10
08-16-2014 4:13 PM


Re: The hardware is the software
No, mram, sarcasm would have been if I'd said something like "What an excellent metaphor you have chosen! Yes, if the protein is akin to hardware then its role in the cell must be akin to software, just as the role of a computer in a factory is akin to software --- rather than, for example, its software being akin to software, as naive and ignorant people might have supposed. Thank you for enlightening us with your mighty creationist wisdom."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 4:13 PM mram10 has not yet responded

  
mram10
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 233 of 285 (735493)
08-16-2014 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Coyote
02-16-2013 11:16 PM


Re: the answer?
And what if there is some kind of natural universal energy field out there, of which all living things partake?

And what if evidence were to be found of such an energy field? Conclusive evidence? Evidence that we could communicate with such a universal field?

What do you think the reaction of the world's 40,000+ different religions, sects, denominations, etc. would be? You think they would say, "Aha! Now we have found the TRUTH at last?"

Not a chance. There are too many egos involved, and too many folks making a good living. And too much belief in unevidenced dogma. There would be lots of good old fashioned "burnings at the stake" over such a discovery. And probably a few thousand more schisms. (That's what you get when you rely on belief instead of evidence.)

Reminds me of Heinlein's comment, "Belief gets in the way of learning."

Coyote,
I almost thought you were describing the secular science community and their attachment to Darwinism and the theory of evolution. Maybe both sides can put away their love/hate of God and look for truth.

Tesla,
Where are you? I really enjoyed reading your posts. Keep them coming.

Edited by mram10, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-16-2014 4:49 PM mram10 has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 234 of 285 (735494)
08-16-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by mram10
08-16-2014 4:44 PM


Re: the answer?
I almost thought you were describing the secular science community and their attachment to Darwinism and the theory of evolution. Maybe both sides can put away their love/hate of God and look for truth.

"Almost thought" is an excellent description of what you did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 4:44 PM mram10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 5:33 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
mram10
Member (Idle past 1031 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-07-2012


Message 235 of 285 (735499)
08-16-2014 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Dr Adequate
08-16-2014 4:49 PM


Re: the answer?
I enjoy your comments that add absolutely nothing to the conversation

I have worked with individuals that like to hear themselves spew vitriol, while adding absolutely nothing of value. Maybe because they feel "inadequate"

Edited by mram10, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-16-2014 4:49 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-16-2014 6:44 PM mram10 has not yet responded
 Message 239 by herebedragons, posted 08-16-2014 9:33 PM mram10 has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15950
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 236 of 285 (735515)
08-16-2014 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by mram10
08-16-2014 5:33 PM


Re: the answer?
I enjoy your comments that add absolutely nothing to the conversation
I have worked with individuals that like to hear themselves spew vitriol, while adding absolutely nothing of value. Maybe because they feel "inadequate"

Thank you for your demonstration of how to add something to the conversation without spewing vitriol, wait, I'll read that again, your demonstration of shameless hypocrisy.

In your past few posts, you've called NoNukes a "fool" for saying something which you had in fact made up in your head; told me that you were "beginning to question [my] sanity" because I made a simple point which you were too dumb to understand, and addressed jar, a Christian, as follows:

Your close-mindedness is sad. I feel pity for people like you. You allow yourself to be blinded by the fear of finding a God, or admitting there are somethings that we cannot understand.

So let's have no more prissy whining out of you if others also descend to the occasional jibe. It just makes you look like a thin-skinned hypocrite.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 237 of 285 (735522)
08-16-2014 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Jackal32
08-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
Hey Jackal32, It seems as if you are a one post wonder, but I'll make a quick comment.

How would your research differ from what current scientists are doing with protein structure/function? And how could a measly $5 million get you anywhere with such a huge project?

It appears that the structure determines the role.

Yes, structure plays a significant role in function. It is not the whole of the story, but it is significant.

This statement doesn't follow from your previous one. Software determines the role that the hardware plays. The same hardware can be used for different purposes depending on what software is loaded. The hardware/software concept is a poor analogy in this case.

I suspect that you heard this concept somewhere and got confused as to how to apply it.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Jackal32, posted 08-14-2014 11:43 AM Jackal32 has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 238 of 285 (735523)
08-16-2014 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by New Cat's Eye
08-14-2014 11:57 AM


Re: The hardware is the software
The chemistry behind protein synthesis is fairly well understood, and it does happen spontaneously.

I know what you are saying here, but to be fair, protein synthesis is a highly regulated process and to say "it happens spontaneously" ... just seems wrong to me.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-14-2014 11:57 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-17-2014 5:14 PM herebedragons has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1413
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 239 of 285 (735524)
08-16-2014 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by mram10
08-16-2014 5:33 PM


Re: the answer?
I enjoy your comments that add absolutely nothing to the conversation

I would turn this around on you and ask what have you added to the conversation?

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 5:33 PM mram10 has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005


Message 240 of 285 (735531)
08-17-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by mram10
08-16-2014 4:13 PM


Re: The hardware is the software
You really should learn what words mean before you use them. It is very easy. There are things called dictionaries. Also, a thesaurus might be a big help to.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by mram10, posted 08-16-2014 4:13 PM mram10 has not yet responded

    
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