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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 451 of 503 (687659)
01-15-2013 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 427 by PaulK
11-21-2012 4:18 AM


PaulK, as I said in the post above we do not know which animals were unclean before the flood, we do know which were unclean >1000 years later. The rules changed at the flood, then changed at the introduction of the law, and then changed again at the crucifixion.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by PaulK, posted 11-21-2012 4:18 AM PaulK has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 452 of 503 (687660)
01-15-2013 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 430 by Percy
11-21-2012 10:20 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
Percy, the Acatlan complex was re-dated. They revised their opinions on how and when the Acatlan complex was formed.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2006/11/061117123212.htm
Age data, newly unearthed fossils and chemical analysis of the rocks show that the complex is much younger than previously thought. It records a pivotal part of the Appalachian story not preserved elsewhere.

(ps please help with quotes again)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Percy, posted 11-21-2012 10:20 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 454 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2013 7:51 AM mindspawn has responded
 Message 459 by Percy, posted 01-15-2013 9:10 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 453 of 503 (687661)
01-15-2013 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Granny Magda
11-22-2012 1:40 PM


Re: Bones and the flood
Granny Magda, I like the concept of parsimony. This is why I get very frustrated when talking to evolutionists because of the apparent inability to think outside the "box" of evolution and look at what the facts actually say. Layering of fossils is the most logical reflection of a series of proliferations (population explosions) according to changing conditions. This is the observable process, more so than evolution. Thus when you have a change from a cool anoxic ocean to a warm anoxic ocean, you would have a change from cool anoxic ocean creatures to warm anoxic marine fauna. Then with a gradual change cooling to more oxygenated conditions you would have gradual changes to marine fauna reaching today's levels.

Regarding specifically the whales, I was incorrect to term them warm water, the logic is that they would have been in a cool water oxygenated inland sea, spreading to arctic regions during the flood. They would not have survived the warm water anoxic conditions of the Triassic and so would not be found fossilised there. Their later appearance would be associated with their movement away from arctic regions as oceans oxygenised and cooled over time. (not that they need the oxygen, but they feed on fish and plankton which need oxygen)

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

Edited by mindspawn, : Explaining whales


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Granny Magda, posted 11-22-2012 1:40 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 454 of 503 (687662)
01-15-2013 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 7:25 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
Does the redating described in the article invalidate any dates found through index fossils, radioactive decay dating, or other age data? Not as far as I can see. Instead the article seems to describe discovering that the complex is really part of the Appalachians.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 7:25 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 455 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 8:17 AM NoNukes has responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 455 of 503 (687663)
01-15-2013 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 454 by NoNukes
01-15-2013 7:51 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
They seem to have found new fossils that validate the later dates. The new fossils, and the new origins (Appalachian origins) invalidates the earlier dates for those mountains.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 454 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2013 7:51 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


Message 456 of 503 (687664)
01-15-2013 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 449 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 6:31 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Obviously when creationists describe fossils as "early Triassic", "middle Triassic", "late Triassic", etc, they are not just making this up us they go along, it's because they have used geological methods to put dates on them.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 449 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 6:31 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 457 of 503 (687665)
01-15-2013 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 455 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 8:17 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
They seem to have found new fossils that validate the later dates. The new fossils, and the new origins (Appalachian origins) invalidates the earlier dates for those mountains.

You are avoiding the question. Where those 'invalidated dates' based on radiometry, previously found fossils, or other dating technique which is now shown to have been invalid? Apparently not.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 455 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 8:17 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 458 of 503 (687666)
01-15-2013 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 7:46 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Layering of fossils is the most logical reflection of a series of proliferations (population explosions) according to changing conditions.

Um ... apart from your inability to find any of the populations that supposedly exploded; as set against the ability of paleontologists to find intermediate forms.

It's one thing to think about the box, but you're thinking outside the evidence.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 7:46 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15682
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 459 of 503 (687667)
01-15-2013 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 452 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 7:25 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
No, Mindspawn, the portions of the Acatlan complex that had already been dated were not redated. What happened was that they found a previously unknown extension of the Acatlan complex in Mexico that formed much more recently than the older portion in the US.

You keep citing the same article (http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2006/11/061117123212.htm) in support of your strange belief, and all I can do is keep telling you you're misinterpreting it. Which do you think more likely:

  • Radiometric dating can be off by over a hundred million years, a fact that would shake to their respective cores both paleontology and physics, but no one has noticed or cares.

  • You're misinterpreting the article.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 452 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 7:25 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2013 12:30 PM Percy has responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 460 of 503 (687690)
01-15-2013 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by Percy
01-15-2013 9:10 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
Which do you think more likely:

Radiometric dating can be off by over a hundred million years, a fact that would shake to their respective cores both paleontology and physics, but no one has noticed or cares.

You're misinterpreting the article.

Uh, "shaken to their respective cores"??? Isn't that after all what he is trying to suggest?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by Percy, posted 01-15-2013 9:10 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by Percy, posted 01-15-2013 7:42 PM NoNukes has responded

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2302
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(2)
Message 461 of 503 (687698)
01-15-2013 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 453 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 7:46 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Granny Magda, I like the concept of parsimony.

You like the concept. You don't seem to like it in practise.

Regarding specifically the whales, I was incorrect to term them warm water, the logic is that they would have been in a cool water oxygenated inland sea, spreading to arctic regions during the flood. They would not have survived the warm water anoxic conditions of the Triassic and so would not be found fossilised there.

Except that during the Triassic, the poles were quite temperate. The "anoxic" conditions you keep talking about are entirely your own invention. The average temperature during that period was only three degrees Celcius higher than today; nowhere near hot enough to make the oceans anoxic, nor to preclude whales. Back in the real world, whales emerged in the Eocene and that epoch was, at times, even warmer than the Triassic. Whales survive just fine in tropical conditions.

You keep making excuses for this P-T Flood idea, but at every turn your excuses fall apart. This presents you with a choice; either try again and make more flimsy excuses for your excuses... or grow up and admit that your theory is wrong.

Mutate and survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 7:46 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 9:27 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15682
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 462 of 503 (687724)
01-15-2013 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 460 by NoNukes
01-15-2013 12:30 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
NoNukes writes:

Uh, "shaken to their respective cores"??? Isn't that after all what he is trying to suggest?

Well, not exactly. He's claiming that the article describes a case where radiometric dating was off by over a hundred million years. And I'm pointing out that this would shake paleontology and physics to their respective cores, and am asking him to consider how likely this is given that no one has noticed or even cares, and am further suggesting he consider the more likely possibility that he has misunderstood the article.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 460 by NoNukes, posted 01-15-2013 12:30 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 11:48 AM Percy has responded
 Message 470 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 1:50 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 463 of 503 (687740)
01-16-2013 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 456 by Dr Adequate
01-15-2013 8:53 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
Dr Adequate, this is not obvious. It should be, but in practice the assumption of the truth of the phylogenetic tree is used as proof of the phylogentic tree. So far this is the only argument put forward for dating those particular fossils, and so the whole argument is falling short through lack of evidence presented. I do not doubt the possibility there is evidence, I would just like to see it before assuming the statements presented are facts, fair enough?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-15-2013 8:53 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 158 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 464 of 503 (687741)
01-16-2013 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Granny Magda
01-15-2013 1:25 PM


Re: Bones and the flood
quote:
Except that during the Triassic, the poles were quite temperate. The "anoxic" conditions you keep talking about are entirely your own invention. The average temperature during that period was only three degrees Celcius higher than today; nowhere near hot enough to make the oceans anoxic, nor to preclude whales. .

It is well known that Triassic oceans were anoxic.

http://eonsepochsetc.com/.../Triassic/Tri_Oceans/oceans.html

quote:
Sediment deposition from the Early Triassic tells us that marine conditions were grim at best. Black shales are frequent in the Early Triassic rock strata indicating that both shallow and deep water regions were either completely devoid of oxygen (anoxic) or the oxygen levels were critically low (dysoxic). It is fairly clear that the anoxic conditions in the shallow coastal areas were caused by the severe global warming at the Permo-Triassic boundary since water’s ability to hold oxygen molecules in solution declines as temperatures rise; therefore, the warmer the temperatures, the less oxygen there is available to sustain life. This is true today: cool and vibrant streams when exposed to long-term sunlight and heat become empty of life.

quote:
Back in the real world, whales emerged in the Eocene and that epoch was, at times, even warmer than the Triassic. Whales survive just fine in tropical conditions

That's true whales do survivein the tropics, but they need fish or plankton to eat, and fish and plankton are not found in the anoxic conditions of the Triassic. Whales would therefore be confined to oxygenated waters, most likely found in arctic conditions.

Edited by Admin, : Fix quotes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Granny Magda, posted 01-15-2013 1:25 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 465 of 503 (687744)
01-16-2013 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 9:27 AM


Moderator Assistance
A quoted region begins with [qs] and ends with [/qs].

Alternatively, a quoted region can begin with [quote] and end with [/quote].


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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