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Author Topic:   Flood Geology: A Thread For Portillo
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 6 days)
Posts: 2300
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(1)
Message 466 of 503 (687754)
01-16-2013 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 464 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 9:27 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
It is well known that Triassic oceans were anoxic.

Your source only refers to the Early Triassic, not the whole period. Also, I notice that you omitted this bit, the bit that comes right after your quote ends;

quote:
There is debate as to whether the black shales indicate anoxic conditions in the deep ocean waters or whether these conditions existed only in the sediments themselves.

Uh-huh. Can't imagine why you missed that out...

Meanwhile, back in reality, the Triassic played host to plenty of fish. After all, if there were no fish in the Triassic, there would be no fish today.

That's true whales do survivein the tropics, but they need fish or plankton to eat, and fish and plankton are not found in the anoxic conditions of the Triassic.

Utter crap. You need to stop making shit up.

Here is a Triassic fish;

There are plenty of Triassic fish fossils, they're not rare. What's more, the Triassic was a veritable heaven for giant marine reptiles, creatures that share much the same requirements as whales - air-breathing, fish eating apex predators - so your claims are in direct contradiction of the evidence. And none of this even begins to explain why we see no whale fossils in, say, the Jurassic.

Whales would therefore be confined to oxygenated waters, most likely found in arctic conditions.

But they're not confined to Arctic conditions! There are cetaceans in the Amazon for Chrissakes! They do a damn sight more than "survive", they positively thrive! The limitations that you seek to place upon these creatures exist only in your imagination.

I also note that you make no attempt to answer my actual point; If the Triassic was too hot for whales, why do we see whale fossils from the Eocene, which was even hotter? Is it because you just made all this rubbish up as you went along? I think we both know the answer.

Mutate and Survive

Edited by Granny Magda, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 464 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 9:27 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 468 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 1:22 PM Granny Magda has responded
 Message 476 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2013 4:13 PM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9333
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 467 of 503 (687760)
01-16-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 462 by Percy
01-15-2013 7:42 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
And I'm pointing out that this would shake paleontology and physics to their respective cores

And I'm suggesting that exactly such a shaking is required if the universe is to be only 6000 years old with a global flood about 4500 years ago.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Percy, posted 01-15-2013 7:42 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 469 by Percy, posted 01-16-2013 1:46 PM NoNukes has responded

    
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 468 of 503 (687769)
01-16-2013 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Granny Magda
01-16-2013 10:49 AM


Re: Bones and the flood

But they're not confined to Arctic conditions!

I did not say they were confined to arctic conditions. I said confined to oxygenated regions (most likely arctic).

Utter crap. You need to stop making shit up.

Here is a Triassic fish;

If you want to misunderstand my posts , go for it.

I said fish are not found in the anoxic conditions of the triassic, this is because they are found in the oxygenated regions. I was not saying fish did not exist, that would contradict my whole point about fish actually existing, and whales existing. Fish are not found in anoxic conditions, and anoxic conditions were widespread in the Triassic. They are found in the oxygenated regions. Fish do not survive in anoxic conditions.period.

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

Edited by mindspawn, : Adding a point

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Granny Magda, posted 01-16-2013 10:49 AM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 474 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-16-2013 2:57 PM mindspawn has not yet responded
 Message 477 by Granny Magda, posted 01-16-2013 5:18 PM mindspawn has responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 469 of 503 (687774)
01-16-2013 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 467 by NoNukes
01-16-2013 11:48 AM


Re: dating accuracy issues
NoNukes writes:

And I'm suggesting that exactly such a shaking is required if the universe is to be only 6000 years old with a global flood about 4500 years ago.

Yes, of course.

MindSpawn is suggesting that that article is evidence that the shakeup has already occurred. And I'm suggesting that he may have misinterpreted the article, given that no one but him has noticed this supposed epic failure of radiometric dating and violation of the laws of physics.

We're going back and forth on what feels like an obvious point to me. There must be an interpretation of what I'm saying that I haven't grasped yet. Let me know if you figure out where the problem lies.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 467 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 11:48 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 1:57 PM Percy has responded

    
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 470 of 503 (687775)
01-16-2013 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 462 by Percy
01-15-2013 7:42 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
I wasn't actually claiming any errors in radiometric dating. I was merely noting that a mountain range previously thought to have been formed with has subsequently been found to have been formed with the Appalachians. Scientists make mistakes, that's part of the learning process of science. I was not expecting anyone to make a big issue out of a simple point, that the mountain range of the Acatlan Complex has been re-dated.

The collision created the mountain range:
Evidence collected by Nance and his colleagues from rocks in the Acatlán Complex shows that its collision with Laurussia actually occurred about 120 million years later.

I don't see what I'm misunderstanding


This message is a reply to:
 Message 462 by Percy, posted 01-15-2013 7:42 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 472 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 2:03 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9333
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 471 of 503 (687776)
01-16-2013 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 469 by Percy
01-16-2013 1:46 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
Let me know if you figure out where the problem lies.

In many contexts, pointing out to someone that if they are right, all of science is wrong is a useful technique for stimulating introspection. I just don't think that this is one of those contexts.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 469 by Percy, posted 01-16-2013 1:46 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 473 by Percy, posted 01-16-2013 2:15 PM NoNukes has not yet responded
 Message 479 by mindspawn, posted 01-17-2013 2:49 AM NoNukes has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9333
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 472 of 503 (687777)
01-16-2013 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 470 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 1:50 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
was merely noting that a mountain range previously thought to have been formed with has subsequently been found to have been formed with the Appalachians. Scientists make mistakes, that's part of the learning process of science.

Scientists do make mistakes. I'm still not certain that this particular case would be one of them.

But that said, this thread is replete with expressions of distrust for dating from you. If you actually accepted radiometric dating, we wouldn't be talking about a Triassic period that was only a few thousand years ago. If that mistrust isn't your point this one particular time, perhaps it is not so surprising that it was missed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 470 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 1:50 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15494
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 473 of 503 (687778)
01-16-2013 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 471 by NoNukes
01-16-2013 1:57 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
Yeah, maybe you're right. I don't know what it might take to help him understand that the Acatlan complex has not been redated.

I read your next message responding to MindSpawn's claim that he wasn't making a point about the reliability of radiometric dating. Like you I can't see what his point was if it wasn't about that.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 1:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 474 of 503 (687784)
01-16-2013 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Bones and the flood
I said fish are not found in the anoxic conditions of the triassic, this is because they are found in the oxygenated regions.

Unlike the whales.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 1:22 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 475 of 503 (687793)
01-16-2013 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 431 by FliesOnly
11-21-2012 11:11 AM


Not to pile on, you have a lot to deal with already...but are you suggesting the Noah went around a collect genetically diverse organisms for the Ark? Or did he simply pick and choose from the hundreds of each species that showed up...obviously selecting those that were genetically "unique" from each other (i.e. different alleles)? How did he manage to do that, you suppose? What about alleles whose effects were hidden from Noah cuz, well...cuz they were "inside" the organism? What about recessive alleles? Pleiotropy? Co-dominance? Incomplete dominance? The list goes on.

If two animals can breed well, and yet come from vastly different regions, this increases the chances of a wider set of alleles. To Noah, it would just be getting variety into the breeding stock, its possible he did so, rather than taking 14 animals from one population. I'm not saying he understood genetics.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 431 by FliesOnly, posted 11-21-2012 11:11 AM FliesOnly has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 476 of 503 (687797)
01-16-2013 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 466 by Granny Magda
01-16-2013 10:49 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
A bit of anecdotal evidence ...

... Also, I notice that you omitted this bit, the bit that comes right after your quote ends;

quote:
There is debate as to whether the black shales indicate anoxic conditions in the deep ocean waters or whether these conditions existed only in the sediments themselves.

Uh-huh. Can't imagine why you missed that out...

Here in New England we dig a lot of clams. Steamers are generally (best) found in anoxic conditions, where the mud\sand is black from the lack of oxygen and it smells like sulfurous compounds -- in spite of the fact that the ocean flows over the mud flats at high tide with waters populated with fish and other oxygen consuming organisms.

Such black mud flats would become black shale, without the ocean be anoxic.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 466 by Granny Magda, posted 01-16-2013 10:49 AM Granny Magda has acknowledged this reply

  
Granny Magda
Member (Idle past 6 days)
Posts: 2300
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007


(2)
Message 477 of 503 (687805)
01-16-2013 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 468 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 1:22 PM


Re: Bones and the flood
I said confined to oxygenated regions (most likely arctic).

If your only point is that whales (and their food species) can only live in (at least partly) oxygenated water, then this is true, but it's also a non-point. This is obvious; it's true today, true of the Triassic and true of any era.

If however, you wish to claim that, during the Triassic, oxygenated water was only found in "arctic regions", then you are wrong.

Here's another Triassic fish;

That's a fossil flying fish, from the Middle Triassic of Southern China. During the Middle Triassic, that region was near the equator. This is clear evidence that well oxygenated waters were not limited to polar regions during the Triassic. Perfectly viable waters spanned the globe. Low-oxygen conditions were common, just as your source notes, but you seem to think that means that they were almost universal; they were not. Well oxygenated waters were common. Plenty of room for fish and other food sources, plenty of room for whales.

I said fish are not found in the anoxic conditions of the triassic,

But fish are found in the Triassic. And if the whales' food source is found, then we should find whales. We don't, not until the Eocene, where we find whales thriving in conditions that you claim would prove impossible for them.

Stop making excuses. You know perfectly well why we don't find these mythical Triassic whales. It's the same reason we don't find any Permian whales or Jurassic whales; there were no whales! They did not evolve until about two-hundred million years after your P-T Flood. All you are doing by offering up this sorry string of excuses is uncovering more mistakes and more holes in your absurd Flood theory.

Mutate and Survive


This message is a reply to:
 Message 468 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 1:22 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 478 by mindspawn, posted 01-17-2013 2:22 AM Granny Magda has responded

    
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 478 of 503 (687834)
01-17-2013 2:22 AM
Reply to: Message 477 by Granny Magda
01-16-2013 5:18 PM


Re: Bones and the flood
Stop making excuses. You know perfectly well why we don't find these mythical Triassic whales. It's the same reason we don't find any Permian whales or Jurassic whales; there were no whales! They did not evolve until about two-hundred million years after your P-T Flood. All you are doing by offering up this sorry string of excuses is uncovering more mistakes and more holes in your absurd Flood theory.

Whales just recently appeared. You lack transitionary fossils, I lack fossils of their previous existence, scientists agree that the fossil record does not show evidence of the transitionary fossils that indicate the evolution of the various types of whales.

Applying Occam's razor and assuming their sudden appearance is due to the disappearance of their reptile competitors when oceans got colder after the Mesozoic, why would "rapid evolving" beat "always there in secluded environments" when neither of us has the fossils to prove our position? I believe the expansion out of secluded environments after the Mesozoic (cold waters where their dominant reptile competitors could not survive) and the lack of fossil research below arctic waters is a common sense explanation for a lack of early whale fossils, what is your explanation for your lack of transitionary fossils for most if not all whale species, and their relatively sudden appearance?

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 477 by Granny Magda, posted 01-16-2013 5:18 PM Granny Magda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 480 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-17-2013 5:58 AM mindspawn has responded
 Message 491 by Granny Magda, posted 01-18-2013 11:37 AM mindspawn has responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 12 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 479 of 503 (687835)
01-17-2013 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 471 by NoNukes
01-16-2013 1:57 PM


Re: dating accuracy issues
In many contexts, pointing out to someone that if they are right, all of science is wrong is a useful technique for stimulating introspection. I just don't think that this is one of those contexts.

No, its not one of those contexts. Its not that all of science is wrong, its just that a few categories of science are based on
1) radiometric dating (does have scientific backing, but too many assumptions and also a head in the sand approach)
2) evolution (circular reasoning)

Remove these two assumptions and apply deductive reasoning to the fossil record in an unbiased manner and we get a whole new picture.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 471 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 1:57 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 481 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-17-2013 5:58 AM mindspawn has not yet responded
 Message 486 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2013 12:55 PM mindspawn has responded
 Message 487 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2013 2:26 PM mindspawn has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15482
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 480 of 503 (687840)
01-17-2013 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 478 by mindspawn
01-17-2013 2:22 AM


Re: Bones and the flood
You lack transitionary fossils ...

This is, of course, not true.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 478 by mindspawn, posted 01-17-2013 2:22 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 482 by mindspawn, posted 01-17-2013 6:11 AM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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