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Author Topic:   Motivation for Denying God and Accepting Evolution
jar
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Posts: 29746
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 16 of 39 (673444)
09-19-2012 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by DrJones*
09-19-2012 12:47 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
That whole argument is just plain silly.

I can dislike accountability, even deny accountability, but that has nothing to do with whether or not I will be held accountable, whether speaking of some deity or secular authority.

That argument is simply another totally red herring, palm the pea conman spiel to divert attention from the real issue which is that there is no Theory of Creation.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10198
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 17 of 39 (673445)
09-19-2012 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Genologist
09-19-2012 12:31 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
Geno writes:

As stated elsewhere, the religious pursuit by some to obviate a Creator from science or even from the origins of scientific theories stems from the dislike for accountability or relationship with a being higher than ones-self (pride?).

Your whole thesis seems to depend on some rather major assumptions about why other people do or don't come to the conclusions that they do.

For a start - Has it occurred to you that a reason for not running with the "god did it" hypothesis is that it has been put forward countless times before for a whole raft of phenomena and never once been found to be correct?

It's not pride so much as failure that has led to "god" being relegated as an answer.

Geno writes:

It also stems from a misunderstanding within Christianity at least, that such Intelligent and awesome Being does not condemn but actually desires to restore relationship for OUR good.

Does it? How can those who don't believe in the existence of this creator possibly be worried about whether it wants to condemn or forgive?

Speaking personally - Whether you tell me that god loves me or condemns me has about as much relevance as telling me that Winnie the Pooh wants to be my best friend or assassinate me. I'm really not to worried either way......


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PaulK
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Posts: 13365
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 18 of 39 (673452)
09-19-2012 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Genologist
09-19-2012 12:31 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
quote:

When speaking of evolution it is my understanding that it logically should at least be very closely associated with abiogenesis, (it invariably continues to be taught as connected by teachers, why?)

That really depends on what you are talking about. In terms of the history of life on earth they are closely connected, one follows on from the other. If we define life to exclude early chemical replicators that developed into life (and I prefer not to) then evolution may play a part in abiogenesis. We might evenuse our knowledge of evolution to try to inform studies of abiogenesis by trying to reconstruct the first life.

However they are logically separate when dealing with anything following abiogenesis since it really isn't relevant exactly how the first life got here. As I pointed put in my prior posts we don't need to know how the planets formed to observe their movements or even reconstruct the paths of those orbits through history.

quote:

...and for the purposes of clarity, it certainly needs to be at least strongly emphasised that the ToE effectively has no known beginnings other than that the idea started with a common ancestor, a "simple", ALREADY EXISTING (Intelligently- Created?) life form

That certainly doesn't, add any clarity to the teaching of evolution. And really, we have no good rival to abiogenesis on Earth right now.

quote:

Incidentally, and surely to the embarrassment of secular evos, there is in fact no such thing as a "simple" life form- indeed the genome of the much touted "simple" amoeba proteus, (the amoeba traditionally is taught as being the likely common ancestor), has 290 billion units of DNA- some one hundred times that of the human bein

No, modern amoebas are certainly not represented as the actual ancestors of modern life. And why should it be embarrassing ? It really fits in much better with evolution than creation...

quote:

The ToE with its current ambiguity, (such as is widely taught in schools/mainstream education), coupled with an insistence that every genetic transaction in evolution is unguided or random is why I assert that there is a religious ambition to exclude a Creator.- Ask a bunch of high school students today if they feel that they have been taught the TOE as fact and I'm pretty sure most will say yes, indeed if you observe the exam questions, they at the very least treat the theory as fact

So, a good scientific education is evidence that there is "a religious ambition to exclude a Creator" ?

quote:

There has also appeared over time to generally be a subtle (why subtle?) "evolution" within the theory of evolution from ideas to fact, often with little or no tangible evidence (eg the on-going controversy with transition across species), this is similar (albeit less blatant) to the following typical example of "transition" in another aspect of science: "The Earth is thought to be 4.6 billion years old". "Therefore since [fact] the Earth is 4.6 billion years old,"

So, as favourable evidence accumulates we become more certain of our ideas. This is a problem ?

quote:

As stated elsewhere, the religious pursuit by some to obviate a Creator from science or even from the origins of scientific theories stems from the dislike for accountability or relationship with a being higher than ones-self (pride?)

The constant complaint of the creationist "Scientists are so proud that they refuse to worship ME!"

But as I have pointed out before, the vast majority of qualified experts - including Christians - accept evolution. If evolution was simply a fraud concocted to deny the existence of God that even someone as uninformed as yourself can see through, how could this possibly be the case?


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16293
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 19 of 39 (673465)
09-19-2012 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Genologist
09-19-2012 12:31 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
Hi Genologist,

Inevitably responses to your messages will address issues that aren't really the topic of this thread. If avoidance of consequences for immoral behavior as a motivation for accepting evolution is what you really want to discuss then you need to avoid getting sidetracked into other issues. In this case you've gotten sidetracked onto the distinction between abiogenesis and evolution, and onto the teaching of evolution as fact versus theory.

If people reject God because they want release from moral constraints, then this should be evident in their behavior. Do you have any evidence that rejection of God correlates with greater immoral behavior?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Genologist, posted 09-19-2012 12:31 PM Genologist has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
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Posts: 10115
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.8


(2)
Message 20 of 39 (673506)
09-19-2012 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Genologist
09-19-2012 12:31 PM


Put up time.
I'm not going to take on much of the science part of your post, because the issue of whether evolution is correct is only marginally on topic. I did want to comment on this part:

I assert that there is a religious ambition to exclude a Creator.- Ask a bunch of high school students today if they feel that they have been taught the TOE as fact and I'm pretty sure most will say yes, indeed if you observe the exam questions, they at the very least treat the theory as fact.

I'll note that high school students do not choose what is taught in biology or what questions are going to appear on their exams. So what you are describing here is not a motivation by students to create space between them and their creator, but rather a fiendish plot by scientists and others to keep those students away from a relationship with God.

In fact, inherent in your entire post, including the on topic portions of it, is a belief that biologists are completely insincere about biology and that evolution is just a giant fraud. I am quite sure that you are sincerely convinced that evolution is just a fraud, but I am equally as well convinced that you don't have the knowledge to understand why biologist do accept evolution as the reason for the variation in life on this planet. Your assertions that these scientists are perpetrating a fraud are mere assertions, and, I hope to demonstrate, badly informed. I accept that I am not going to convince you of that, but I'd like to get past mere assertions.

I'd appreciate it if you would cite the biology text that you allege presents abiogenesis as theory, indistingushable from and serving as the basis for the theory of evolution. If the text originated in the US, I can predict without seeing it, that it does nothing of the sort. Maybe in Zimbabwe books are different, but I doubt even that. I suspect that we can gain an insight into your thought processes by comparing what is actually in those texts and your impressions as expressed here.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

“Choose silence of all virtues, for by it you hear other men's imperfections, and conceal your own.” George Bernard Shaw


This message is a reply to:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 308 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 21 of 39 (673578)
09-20-2012 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
09-19-2012 12:43 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
Hi, Jar.

jar writes:

Abiogenesis is irrelevant to discussing the FACT of evolution.

I don't mean to belabor this too much, since it's not really on-topic, but I think it's relevant to the discussion of people's motivations to accept or reject a Creator-God.

That Genologist is talking about abiogenesis is kind of your fault. You wrote this in message 8:

jar, msg 8 writes:

Down through history many attempts have been made to explain the facts seen; there is the "Parent" myths where everything is the product of the union of two gods; the "Orderer" that finds Chaos and lines everything up and the "Travel" myths where life emerges from some other realm, under ground, the skies, a cave.

They were all attempts to explain the FACT of Evolution.

I don't see these as attempts to explain the fact of evolution. I can agree that they are attempts to explain facts that evolution explains better; but I think it's more accurate to call them attempts to explain the fact of the origin of life, rather than attempts to explain the fact of evolution.

I would argue that, while abiogenesis and evolution certainly are distinct concepts academically, we really can't deny that acceptance of the latter very frequently influences acceptance of the former.

That certainly was the case for myself, anyway. I certainly didn't set out specifically looking for an excuse to reject God so I could be free to behave however I pleased: rather, careful study of the evidence for evolution convinced me of the fact of evolution, and gradually led me to accept a smaller and smaller role for God in the inner workings of the universe.

So, for me, the two ideas kind of came as a tandem, package deal: acceptance of one contributed substantially to my acceptance of the other. Of course, now that I understand both, I realize that they are actually distinct concepts, but we're not really talking about how distinct the concepts are academically: we're talking about how the concepts interact with one another on a sort of "psychological landscape." And, in that case, evolution and abiogenesis are clearly linked.

There certainly are a lot of interesting things to discuss about how and why people accept one worldview or the other, or attempt to compromise between them somehow. Unfortunately, I don't think any answer will be meaningfully generalizable, so it seems that this discussion could only be about specific case studies, like mine.

Personally, I want to chime in with NoNukes: that first question, about how the omission of evolutionary education might impact society, is much more interesting. Can we discuss that here? Or has it been deemed off-topic?


-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 09-19-2012 12:43 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 7271
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 22 of 39 (673584)
09-20-2012 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Genologist
09-19-2012 12:31 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
The ToE with its current ambiguity, (such as is widely taught in schools/mainstream education), coupled with an insistence that every genetic transaction in evolution is unguided or random is why I assert that there is a religious ambition to exclude a Creator.

Like most creationists, you have things completely backwards. Within science, you need evidence in order to INCLUDE a mechanism. Creationists have been incapable of producing this evidence. In science, there is no Creator to exclude. What is included in science are the mechanisms we have evidence for, and those include natural selection and random mutation (with respect to fitness). If you want a Creator included in science then get off your butt and do the scientific research.

the religious pursuit by some to obviate a Creator from science or even from the origins of scientific theories stems from the dislike for accountability or relationship with a being higher than ones-self (pride?).

How do you use the theory of evolution to remove accountability? That doesn't make any sense at all. Is the theory of gravity also an attempt to remove God from the motion of the planets, therefore removing accountability to God? Name one theory where this doesn't apply.


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16293
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 23 of 39 (673588)
09-20-2012 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Blue Jay
09-20-2012 12:03 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
Blue Jay writes:

Personally, I want to chime in with NoNukes: that first question, about how the omission of evolutionary education might impact society, is much more interesting. Can we discuss that here? Or has it been deemed off-topic?

If someone proposes it over at Proposed New Topics I'll review it as quickly as I can, which might possibly not be today since the rest of my day is kind of full.

--Percy


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Genologist
Junior Member (Idle past 1817 days)
Posts: 8
From: Kadoma, Mashonaland West, Zimbabwe
Joined: 09-15-2012


Message 24 of 39 (673628)
09-20-2012 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by DrJones*
09-19-2012 12:47 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
And what is your evidence for this assertion?

What other general reason has there ever been for rejecting any authority? It's the "Don't tell me what to do, and how to live my life" syndrome. Sadly in the case of the Creator God many have misunderstood what type of authority He is, He is a God of love, he wants what is best for us, but we have been given free will, the chance to choose, and the time to do it in. However denying that He exists does not change His status, only ours.

By the way, could somebody please explain how the simple common ancestor life form, traditionally taught as being the "humble" amoeba could have 290 billion units of DNA- some one hundred times that of the human being when evolution clearly teaches a progression in complexity (and a gaining of genetic information) from simple life forms to the most complex such as yours truly! Perhaps this simple thing will confound the wise, and the "Fact" of evolution will once more "need" to be "in evolution".


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 1683
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004


Message 25 of 39 (673629)
09-20-2012 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Genologist
09-20-2012 6:08 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
What other general reason has there ever been for rejecting any authority?

So you don't have any evidence for your claim of:

As stated elsewhere, the religious pursuit by some to obviate a Creator from science or even from the origins of scientific theories stems from the dislike for accountability or relationship with a being higher than ones-self (pride?)

God separated the races and attempting to mix them is like attempting to mix water with diesel fuel.- Buzsaw Message 177

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor


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PaulK
Member
Posts: 13365
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


(1)
Message 26 of 39 (673632)
09-20-2012 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Genologist
09-20-2012 6:08 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
quote:

What other general reason has there ever been for rejecting any authority?

You've yet to support the claim that it is all about rejection of authority. You need to do that first.

quote:

By the way, could somebody please explain how the simple common ancestor life form, traditionally taught as being the "humble" amoeba could have 290 billion units of DNA- some one hundred times that of the human being when evolution clearly teaches a progression in complexity (and a gaining of genetic information) from simple life forms to the most complex such as yours truly! Perhaps this simple thing will confound the wise, and the "Fact" of evolution will once more "need" to be "in evolution".

I already answered that. Nobody teaches that modern amoebas are the common ancestor of all life. And evolution does not teach a progression in complexity. And if it did, amoebas have been evolving as long as everything else. Which is one reason why we don't say that modern amoebas are the common ancestor - they've had a lot of time to evolve away from that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Genologist, posted 09-20-2012 6:08 PM Genologist has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29746
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 27 of 39 (673633)
09-20-2012 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Genologist
09-20-2012 6:08 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
By the way, could somebody please explain how the simple common ancestor life form, traditionally taught as being the "humble" amoeba could have 290 billion units of DNA- some one hundred times that of the human being when evolution clearly teaches a progression in complexity (and a gaining of genetic information) from simple life forms to the most complex such as yours truly!

It's really simple.

Today's amoeba is the evolved amoeba not the common ancestor and evolution does not teach a progression in complexity or gaining genetic information except in the misrepresentations of Creationists.

The explanation is that you have no idea of what the Theory of Evolution says.

It really is that simple.

Also the god folk deny, in fact laugh about, is simply the picayune little caricature of a God that the Creationists try to market. The god you are trying to market gets rejected because YOU insist on tying the god you created to things that have been shown to be wrong. When Christians or any other religion insist on being wrong about the simple things that can be easily tested and checked like the Fact of Evolution, the Theory of Evolution, the fact that the Biblical Flood never happened, that the universe is old, how can you expect them to take those things that are hard to test or verify like the existence of the god you are marketing?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 28 of 39 (673634)
09-20-2012 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Genologist
09-20-2012 6:08 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
What other general reason has there ever been for rejecting any authority?

Yeah, Genologist, why do you reject the authority of Allah, his chosen Prophet, and his Holy Koran?

It's the "Don't tell me what to do, and how to live my life" syndrome.

I see. Well, you must speak for yourself. But don't you think it's possible that the rest of us might have another reason?


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 29 of 39 (673635)
09-20-2012 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Genologist
09-20-2012 6:08 PM


Re: Evolution is a FACT.
By the way, could somebody please explain how the simple common ancestor life form, traditionally taught as being the "humble" amoeba could have 290 billion units of DNA- some one hundred times that of the human being when evolution clearly teaches a progression in complexity (and a gaining of genetic information) from simple life forms to the most complex such as yours truly! Perhaps this simple thing will confound the wise, and the "Fact" of evolution will once more "need" to be "in evolution".

Sure thing. The amoeba is a eukaryote like us and unlike the universal common ancestor, which all evolutionists agree must have been a prokaryote; and the traditional teaching to which you refer appears to have been entirely invented by creationists.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 16293
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.5


(1)
Message 30 of 39 (673640)
09-20-2012 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Genologist
09-20-2012 6:08 PM


What Atheists Really Believe
Genologist writes:

What other general reason has there ever been for rejecting any authority?

You think only one "general reason" can exist for rejecting authority? Really?

It's the "Don't tell me what to do, and how to live my life" syndrome.

Yes, this is one reason for rejecting authority. Do you have any evidence that it's the atheists' reason for believing God does not exist? Have you compared and contrasted this reason with the reason atheists believe Allah and Zeus do not exist? Have you considered the possibility that maybe atheists reject God's authority for the same reason they reject Allah and Zeus, namely that none of these gods exist?

Sadly in the case of the Creator God many have misunderstood what type of authority He is.

I believe atheists think the Creator God is of the non-existent type.

However denying that He exists does not change His status, only ours.

How does the evidence for your God exceed the evidence for Allah or Zeus?

By the way, could somebody please explain how the simple common ancestor life form, traditionally taught as being the "humble" amoeba could have 290 billion units of DNA- some one hundred times that of the human being when evolution clearly teaches a progression in complexity (and a gaining of genetic information) from simple life forms to the most complex such as yours truly! Perhaps this simple thing will confound the wise, and the "Fact" of evolution will once more "need" to be "in evolution".

In a saner world you would have added the smiley as an indication that you were only kidding when you stuffed that paragraph full or errors and misconceptions, but sadly I think that's not the case.

--Percy

Edited by Percy, : Fix title.


This message is a reply to:
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