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Author Topic:   Do We NEED God?
Posts: 2870
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.6

Message 211 of 213 (797282)
01-16-2017 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by NoNukes
01-13-2017 1:23 PM

Re: Omni-God
NoNukes writes:

In particular, there cannot simultaneously be free will and free action and yet have a universe where no one can elect to do evil.

Why not?

I suppose it depends on where you put the limits on "free will."

Free will certainly does not mean you can choose to do anything.
Since I cannot choose to levitate.
I cannot choose to walk through a brick wall.
I cannot choose to force someone to respect or love me.

Do I still have free will?

What if evil was restricted, but you could still freely choose many different various good things?
Where is this invisible line that removes free will when evil goes away?
Where is it right now?

You can personally define free will to mean "the choice between good and evil."

But, well, that sounds like a personal decision.

Given a choice between worlds where those two concepts are the choice, I would choose to live in the universe with free will.

To me, that depends if I get a life currently similar to mine, or if I get killed as an innocent baby.
But, assuming I get a life similar to my current one... I would still choose a world with "slightly less evil" over than this one no matter what. A world with, say, no rapes of little girls. All other evil remains.

Would that not be favourable than our current world?
Would both still have "free will?"
Do we have "free will" now?

(These questions are meant to understand your current-understanding of the term 'free will').

Edited by Stile, : Attempting some clarification and spelling corrections.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by NoNukes, posted 01-13-2017 1:23 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3

Message 212 of 213 (797302)
01-16-2017 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by ringo
01-16-2017 10:43 AM

Re: Omni-God
sometimes you don't make consistent sense. On the one hand, you say that all God does it tell Noah to be responsible for his own salvation. On the other, you say that if you could imagine God as existing, He is then obligated to prevent evil. In other words, your God becomes one whom You define and create.

Our duty is to listen and obey, not to direct.

There would have been no need to build a boat without a flood. The evidence showed no likelihood of a flood.

People too often wait for evidence and the indecisiveness dooms them.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Whoever trusts in his own mind is a fool, but he who walks in wisdom will be delivered.~Proverbs 28:26

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by ringo, posted 01-16-2017 10:43 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ringo, posted 01-19-2017 11:28 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5

Message 213 of 213 (797388)
01-19-2017 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
01-16-2017 2:47 PM

Re: Omni-God
Phat writes:

... you say that if you could imagine God as existing, He is then obligated to prevent evil.

Not at all. But if there was a God who could prevent evil and didn't, he would be the enemy.

Phat writes:

In other words, your God becomes one whom You define and create.

No. YOUR God is one whom YOU define and create and I reject.

Phat writes:

There would have been no need to build a boat without a flood.

EXACTLY! Noah had to save himself FROM GOD.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 01-16-2017 2:47 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

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