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Author Topic:   Let The Debates Begin! Obama v Romney
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 46 of 86 (674958)
10-04-2012 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by onifre
10-04-2012 12:01 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
The NY Times figures also suggest it is reasonably even in terms of amount raised so far.
If money spent were the only significant factor we should expect Romney to close the gap as he spends his extra-as-yet-unspent warchest shouldn't we?
I guess it remains to be seen who raises the most cash as these things are presumably ongoing up until the last minute.

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 86 (674960)
10-04-2012 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by dronestar
10-04-2012 3:12 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
Not at all. If there was a cap on how much ANY entity can contribute, then maybe, but as it is now there is no regulation.
Would it be more accurate to say that the amount of money corporations give to a candidate ...
So far as I know (someone stop me if I'm wrong) the Citizens United decision allows corporations to donate as much as they like to "super-PACs", but not to the actual official campaign fund. So the size of the candidates' campaign warchests may indeed reflect how much people like them.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by dronestar, posted 10-04-2012 4:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 48 of 86 (674962)
10-04-2012 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2012 3:56 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
AD writes:
So far as I know (someone stop me if I'm wrong) the Citizens United decision allows corporations to donate as much as they like to "super-PACs", but not to the actual official campaign fund. So the size of the candidates' campaign warchests may indeed reflect how much people like them.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but, would not one directly effect the other? If Wall Street ran a ten trillion dollar advertising campaign for me, wouldn't my popularity soar. And inversely, if Wall Street ran a ten trillion dollar advertising campaign AGAINST my opponent, wouldn't my popularity soar.
(Well, maybe not me, but some one less objectionable)

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 49 of 86 (674966)
10-04-2012 4:27 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by dronestar
10-04-2012 4:11 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
Perhaps I am mistaken, but, would not one directly effect the other? If Wall Street ran a ten trillion dollar advertising campaign for me, wouldn't my popularity soar. And inversely, if Wall Street ran a ten trillion dollar advertising campaign AGAINST my opponent, wouldn't my popularity soar.
Yeah, sure. My point is that when we're measuring how much money is given to the candidates directly --- to their official campaign funds --- we are measuring donations from ordinary people, not from corporations. Therefore this sum of money will correlate with the popularity of the candidates without necessarily causing it.

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dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 50 of 86 (674970)
10-04-2012 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2012 4:27 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
DA writes:
My point is that when we're measuring how much money is given to the candidates directly --- to their official campaign funds --- we are measuring donations from ordinary people, not from corporations.
If the donations weren't affected by the corporate world, then yes, I would agree.
However, the popularity of a candidate IS greatly manufactured by the corporate media. I thought my post Message 800 was an adequate argument reflecting how corporations and elites choose the candidates for the voters. I should think our world would be vastly more different if big business stayed out of politics.
Edited by dronester, : Re-emphasised by changing sentence to: "However, the popularity of a candidate IS greatly manufactured by the corporate media."

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 51 of 86 (674976)
10-04-2012 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2012 4:27 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
we are measuring donations from ordinary people, not from corporations.
The CEO of Dreamworks Animation donating $2 million to the Obama campaign is not really an ordinary people contribution.
The link both Straggler and I provided reflected total campaign contributions, including those of the corporate world. Which I guess are considered "people" too.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 52 of 86 (674977)
10-04-2012 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by onifre
10-04-2012 5:12 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
The CEO of Dreamworks Animation donating $2 million to the Obama campaign ...
Citation needed.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by onifre, posted 10-04-2012 5:22 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 53 of 86 (674978)
10-04-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Straggler
10-04-2012 3:40 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
If money spent were the only significant factor we should expect Romney to close the gap as he spends his extra-as-yet-unspent warchest shouldn't we?
And perhaps we will, esp after last nights "debates" where it seems the media feels Romney did better somehow. I watched it. I didn't see a sway in any direction.
I don't know if it will be enough to close the gap but it will get closer as Romney gives the final push.
I guess it remains to be seen who raises the most cash as these things are presumably ongoing up until the last minute.
Yeah we'll see.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 54 of 86 (674979)
10-04-2012 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2012 5:14 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
Here
quote:
Steve Mostyn
Texas trial lawyer.
$2.0m
----------------------------------------
Jeffrey Katzenberg
Chief executive of Dreamworks Animation.
$2.0m
----------------------------------------
James H. Simons
President of Euclidean Capital and Board Chair of Renaissance Technologies Corp., a hedge fund company.
$2.0m
-----------------------------------------
Jon Stryker
Gay right activist and founder of the Arcus Foundation.
$2.0m
-----------------------------------------
Irwin Jacobs
Founder of chipmaker Qualcomm and former M.I.T. professor.
$2.0

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-04-2012 5:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 55 of 86 (674980)
10-04-2012 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by onifre
10-04-2012 5:22 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
But that is a list of super-PAC donors.

This message is a reply to:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 56 of 86 (675021)
10-05-2012 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2012 5:46 PM


Re: Money Wins Presidency
Dr A writes:
But that is a list of super-PAC donors.
I think Oni's point is that the candidate who spends most wins. That a large amount of the funds used are via corporate donations doesn't detract from this. In fact it probably adds to his wider point....
Dr A writes:
My point is that when we're measuring how much money is given to the candidates directly --- to their official campaign funds --- we are measuring donations from ordinary people, not from corporations. Therefore this sum of money will correlate with the popularity of the candidates without necessarily causing it.
Direct donations could indeed account for a correlation between popularity and campaign funds which nullifies the spend-to-win argument.
So I guess the question now becomes what portion of each candidates campaign fund is gathered from individuals and what is through these super-pacs?
Looking into the bewildering world of US political funding also revealed that even more influential than super pacs (in terms of sheer dollar amounts) are 501(c)(4)s.
quote:
Two conservative nonprofits, Crossroads GPS and Americans for Prosperity, have poured almost $60 million into TV ads to influence the presidential race so far, outgunning all super PACs put together, new spending estimates show.
These nonprofits, also known as 501(c)(4)s or c4s for their section of the tax code, don't have to disclose their donors to the public.
Source
I can't find the figures but it seems likely that direct donations made by individuals to official campaign funds make up a relatively small amount of the total war-chest.

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2950 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 57 of 86 (675057)
10-05-2012 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Dr Adequate
10-04-2012 5:46 PM


I am a Super-Pac and so can you
But that is a list of super-PAC donors.
It's all the same shit. Super-Pacs, as Colbert has shown us, mean nothing. Let's start an EvC Super-Pac!
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 86 (675228)
10-09-2012 7:09 AM


Romney Ahead!?
Oh dear God!
Jesus, save us all!

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 59 of 86 (675229)
10-09-2012 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Taz
10-04-2012 1:09 AM


Re: Which Platform Has More Substance?
Phat writes:
Obamacare has cost my union health insurance more in that they now have to insure a wider pool of people than they did before...
Tax replies writes:
Hang on a sec. I thought you were a christian.
I never said I was against Obamacare. Im just mentioning the impact it is having in the union. Our fund is shrinking quicker than they anticipated, but we just negotiated for the companies to kick in some more loot.
A little socialism goes a long way......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Taz, posted 10-04-2012 1:09 AM Taz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 86 (675230)
10-09-2012 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Jon
10-09-2012 7:09 AM


Re: Romney Ahead!?
Thats what they say, although their idea of Jesus is One who favors a free market economy in which global labor is used to make US Christians wealthier.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Jon, posted 10-09-2012 7:09 AM Jon has not replied

  
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