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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 346 of 377 (721707)
03-11-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by Panda
10-22-2012 6:34 PM


Re: Absence of Certainty - Likelihood Only Option
Panda writes:

Unless you await each morning with a sense of trepidation, then you are equivocating with the word 'know' again.


On the contrary, you're equivocating "know" with "expect".

I expect the sun to come up tomorrow. I also expect a foolish response to this post but I don't "know" I will get one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Panda, posted 10-22-2012 6:34 PM Panda has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 347 of 377 (721708)
03-11-2014 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Tangle
10-22-2012 5:22 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
tangle writes:

Personally, I'm entirely happy to rule out any and all the Gods we've so far invented, but leave open, as an outside possibility, the chance that one day a thoroughly disinterested god will be found playing dominos with himself in another dimension.


That's what I'm saying. We don't "know" that that outside possibility doesn't exist.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Tangle, posted 10-22-2012 5:22 PM Tangle has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 4:05 PM ringo has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 348 of 377 (721709)
03-11-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Eliyahu
03-11-2014 12:54 AM


Re: Evidence that God does not Exist
If we don't find what we're looking for, it might just mean that we don't have the necessary instruments to perceive what we are looking for.

The problem here is that someone has claimed to have found something. However, when we really dig deep into the claim, we find that there is absolutely nothing empirically demonstrable about their claim. It is purely an emotional experience.

The real question is why even claim to have found something if you don't have the necessary observations to begin with?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Eliyahu, posted 03-11-2014 12:54 AM Eliyahu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-11-2014 1:25 PM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 3:59 PM Taq has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 349 of 377 (721710)
03-11-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Taq
03-11-2014 1:20 PM


Re: Evidence that God does not Exist

The real question is why even claim to have found something if you don't have the necessary observations to begin with?

Jewish tradition.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Taq, posted 03-11-2014 1:20 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 350 of 377 (721728)
03-11-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Taq
03-11-2014 1:20 PM


Re: Evidence that God does not Exist
Taq writes:

The real question is why even claim to have found something if you don't have the necessary observations to begin with?

I might add "something or someone.

Spirituality is a subjective experience based on faith and belief.

Some folks wont believe anything without evidence. Others base faith and/or belief on feeling.

Let me give an example of my "feelings" The Pastor asked me to speak at church. I have scant experience in public speaking nor did I have anything prepared...moreover I'm usually nervous before such tasks.

This time I prayed for Gods comfort. I realize that this is a vague term, and critics could quite correctly assert that prayer had nothing to do with the result. The fact is, however, I went before 100+ people and shared my detention center ministry experience with them...totally unafraid, totally focused on the audience, and at no loss for words. My biased belief says that God helped me.

I have no evidence of such a likelihood except to say that my evidence was a combination of my feelings, my experience, and others who commented on how they had never heard me sound quite so together nor my usual shy and immature self.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Taq, posted 03-11-2014 1:20 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Taq, posted 03-11-2014 4:18 PM Phat has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 351 of 377 (721729)
03-11-2014 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by ringo
03-11-2014 1:10 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
tangle writes:

Personally, I'm entirely happy to rule out any and all the Gods we've so far invented, but leave open, as an outside possibility, the chance that one day a thoroughly disinterested god will be found playing dominos with himself in another dimension.


ringo writes:

That's what I'm saying. We don't "know" that that outside possibility doesn't exist.

And to be quite honest, myself or any other believer attempting to convince you otherwise is employing confirmation bias. From a strictly neutral, lifeless, and emotionless critical scientific approach, you are correct.

What I for one attempt to share with you skeptics is my subjective experiences. Other than those, I got nothin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by ringo, posted 03-11-2014 1:10 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by ringo, posted 03-12-2014 11:39 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 352 of 377 (721733)
03-11-2014 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Phat
03-11-2014 3:59 PM


Re: Evidence that God does not Exist
Some folks wont believe anything without evidence.

I would say that with god claims, it is even worse. Before the advent of modern science, almost everything in nature had a supernatural explanation of one kind or another. People accepted these claims based on faith. These explanations turned out to be spectacularly false. Not just a little bit, but way wrong.

Why should we accept faith based arguments when they have failed so badly time and again?

This time I prayed for Gods comfort. I realize that this is a vague term, and critics could quite correctly assert that prayer had nothing to do with the result. The fact is, however, I went before 100+ people and shared my detention center ministry experience with them...totally unafraid, totally focused on the audience, and at no loss for words. My biased belief says that God helped me.

If someone claimed that they prayed to Zeus and had the same experience, would you convert to worshipping Zeus? What about Vishnu? I don't think you would. So why should I be convinced by the same argument for a god I don't believe in?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 3:59 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 4:28 PM Taq has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 353 of 377 (721737)
03-11-2014 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Taq
03-11-2014 4:18 PM


Re: Evidence that God does not Exist
If someone claimed that they prayed to Zeus and had the same experience, would you convert to worshipping Zeus? What about Vishnu? I don't think you would. So why should I be convinced by the same argument for a god I don't believe in?
You dont have to believe in Him. All you have to do is believe in me..

Am I credible? Do you think I am truthful? Is my story plausible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Taq, posted 03-11-2014 4:18 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Taq, posted 03-11-2014 5:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 354 of 377 (721739)
03-11-2014 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Phat
03-11-2014 4:28 PM


Re: Evidence that God does not Exist
You dont have to believe in Him. All you have to do is believe in me..
Am I credible? Do you think I am truthful? Is my story plausible?

Can truthful people still be wrong? Yes.

Are you credible? Absolutely not. Anyone who tries to have conversations with invisible people is not credible.

Is your story plausible? As to a deity being involved, absolutely not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 4:28 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Raphael
Member
Posts: 133
Joined: 09-29-2007


Message 355 of 377 (721746)
03-11-2014 8:42 PM


I am super busy studying for final exams, but I thought I'd allow myself to be preoccupied for a bit by this discussion here

After reading through this thread it seems to me that we are once again facing the great debate. We have Stile (and his consistently used 4/5-statement outline ) arguing that he knows God does not exist. We have Eliyahu arguing the opposite. With interjections between and throughout. Both have asserted what they believe to be true.

It interests me that we, as humans, get so caught up in this kind of argument. Focusing so much on the rationality, the mathematics, the science, all it turns out to be is one huge insult-filled, exponent citing spaghetti monster. Haha.

We are so quick to lose sight of the much bigger issues at hand. My issue lies with both sides.

Stile writes:

Whether or not God exists is a matter of reality.
Following the evidence is our best known method for determining the state of reality.

Your choice if you want to follow the evidence or not.
By following the evidence... I know that God does not exist.
By following the evidence... I know that God does not exist even more than I know you won't die the next time you post here at EvC.

For Stile, God does not exist. His subjective experience has told him so. He claims the collective "we" (meaning humanity I'm assuming?) have been unable to prove God's existence, since he cannot be seen, does not answer prayers, etc.

This confuses me since the majority of humanity would affirm the existence of some sort of a supernatural power, and there are many testimonies of supernatural experiences out there (ghost sightings, unexplained phenomenon, answering prayer, miracles, etc). Here are some links:

http://www.pewresearch.org/...ricans-say-theyve-seen-a-ghost

http://www.livescience.com/...-people-aliens-ghosts-god.html

http://www.rawstory.com/...-still-believe-in-witches-or-ufos

This is affirmed by history as well. Moreover, humans in general tend to believe in or at least leave the possibility open to the existence of some sort of supernatural force/forces. (Aliens/God/demons/spirits): So since "we" (as a human race) have (in general) a belief in some sort of supernatural, two things are apparent.

1. Stile is choosing the minority view that the supernatural doesn't exist.

2. It is obvious that Stiles' problem does not actually lie with the supernatural, but with the Judeo/Christian presentation of God. If this were not so he would not have begun his position by attacking (albeit non maliciously) an already established position like "God," and would have wrote "Any sort of supernatural force of any kind" or something of that nature.

So my question for Stile would be: "What about the Judeo/Christian God or the people who claim his name do you disagree with?" The churches? The hypocrisy? The assumptions? This is the internet, so one can only get so personal, but I truly believe if this was not a debate, and Judeo-Christianity were not Judeo-Christianity, if it had no name, if the religions did not exist and all you had was an unnamed book on an island somewhere, you would find room in your worldview for clothing the naked, healing the sick, feeding the hungry, and setting the oppressed free. (Luke 4:17) That's Jesus. That's God.

Eliyahu writes:

Nowadays there is strong irrefutable scientific proof that God exist, in the form of the anthropic principle, the fine tuning of the universe.

Eliyahu, on the other hand, claims that God does exist, and that mathematics can prove the existence of said God. He has argued that due to the anthropic principle God can be proven to exist.

While this may be true or false, I would argue that trying to prove God's existence with science/mathematics to those who use the same means to disprove God's existence is equally as futile. Here is a prime example: The opposing side has refused to accept your thesis, and so you really have nothing more to give them than reiterating your point. How you do this is up to you, but no matter how many insults you include, appeals for reason you throw out, and references back to your original point you make they will always refute you with the same things.

I know Eliyahu is Jewish, so this is my personal perspective and I do not mean this in a disrespectful way (I am a protestant Christian). Jesus was counter-cultural. Meaning, when those challenging him came with intellectual arguments he confused them by not feeding their intellectualism. He simply loved people, and let that be the testimony that God is real.

So, in conclusion, the argument is really actually fruitless, for when debating on such an over-debated topic, especially over the internet, no ground can be gained on either side. It is only faith expressing itself in love that will have any merit in the kingdom (Gal. 5:6) and if that's either of you, I'll be seeing you there! Today. Tomorrow. And in eternity The Beatles really were right! Haha.

Regards!

- Raph


Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Pressie, posted 03-12-2014 12:36 AM Raphael has responded
 Message 358 by Phat, posted 03-12-2014 1:01 AM Raphael has not yet responded
 Message 363 by Stile, posted 03-12-2014 12:57 PM Raphael has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1605
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 356 of 377 (721757)
03-12-2014 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Raphael
03-11-2014 8:42 PM


Raphael writes:

So, in conclusion, the argument is really actually fruitless, for when debating on such an over-debated topic, especially over the internet, no ground can be gained on either side.


Raphael, I respectfully disagree with that conclusion.

I can present myself as an example where debates such as these played a huge part in changing my mind completely from being a Protestant to becoming non-religious.

What we usually see in debates such as these are completely illogical, and dare I say functionally illiterate, religious people such as Eliyahu and Faith on the religious side up against rational and well-educated people on the other side. People who obviously thought long and hard about religion.

There are exceptions to the rule, I immediately think of CS and RAZD and some others on this forum. Iíve learned a tremendous amount from them. Sometimes I think that religious people such as them just canít live on the same planet as those fundamentalists.

I don't have any repect for the rest of your conclusions. Just wishful thinking and preaching with absolutely no empirical evidence or merit to it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Raphael, posted 03-11-2014 8:42 PM Raphael has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Phat, posted 03-12-2014 12:58 AM Pressie has not yet responded
 Message 359 by Faith, posted 03-12-2014 3:32 AM Pressie has not yet responded
 Message 361 by Raphael, posted 03-12-2014 12:18 PM Pressie has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(2)
Message 357 of 377 (721762)
03-12-2014 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Pressie
03-12-2014 12:36 AM


We all have merit
Pressie,to Raphael writes:

I don't have any respect for the rest of your conclusions. Just wishful thinking and preaching with absolutely no empirical evidence or merit to it.

again, I would argue that although there is no evidence, there definitely is merit.

Websters writes:


Full Definition of MERIT

1
a obsolete : reward or punishment due
b : the qualities or actions that constitute the basis of one's deserts
c : a praiseworthy quality : virtue
d : character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem; also : achievement
2
: spiritual credit held to be earned by performance of righteous acts and to ensure future benefits
3
a plural : the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form
b : individual significance or justification

I believe that we all have merit. Raphael brings up the point that unbelief is a minority view globally. Disagreement leads to communication...which is the reason that we endlessly discuss these issues. I actually look forward to engaging in dialogue with some of the names that I see at this forum. And of course we rarely agree---if we did, the whole game would be over. Pressie, while you can present yourself as an example of changing from one extreme to another, there are others who have changed from being non-religious to being a Protestant, for example.

I also will agree that many religious people are illogical thinkers...and many non religious people are extremely logical and well read, though again, there are exceptions to this rule.

And I disagree with Raphael that argumentativeness is fruitless.

The very fact that we here at EvC have dialogue at all is...to me...fruitful. Its not about winning or losing a discussion so much as it is about finding two hundred new ways to say the same thing only better. At least for me....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Pressie, posted 03-12-2014 12:36 AM Pressie has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9315
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


(1)
Message 358 of 377 (721763)
03-12-2014 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Raphael
03-11-2014 8:42 PM


Off Topic for but a moment
Raphael writes:

I am super busy studying for final exams, but I thought I'd allow myself to be preoccupied for a bit by this discussion here

No wonder you have been praying! haha

Tell us what subjects you are being tested for.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Raphael, posted 03-11-2014 8:42 PM Raphael has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24846
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 359 of 377 (721771)
03-12-2014 3:32 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Pressie
03-12-2014 12:36 AM


What we usually see in debates such as these are completely illogical, and dare I say functionally illiterate, religious people such as Eliyahu and Faith on the religious side up against rational and well-educated people on the other side. People who obviously thought long and hard about religion.

I thought long and hard for many years before becoming a committed Protestant, before which I was always regarded as quite well educated and particularly as literate. Apparently you can only recognize thinking if it leads to the conclusions you came to. Typical of the EvC mentality of course.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Pressie, posted 03-12-2014 12:36 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13038
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 360 of 377 (721814)
03-12-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 351 by Phat
03-11-2014 4:05 PM


Re: The Northwest Passage
Phat writes:

From a strictly neutral, lifeless, and emotionless critical scientific approach, you are correct.
What I for one attempt to share with you skeptics is my subjective experiences.


Well, my subjective experiences confirm the neutral, lifeless and emotionless critical approach.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by Phat, posted 03-11-2014 4:05 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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