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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6240
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 406 of 489 (828832)
02-25-2018 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 405 by Rrhain
02-24-2018 11:47 PM


Rrhain writes:

You know what the process is, Tangle. Didn't you read the post before you responded?

Sure I know what the process is and yes I did read your post. To remind you, it's for those making the claim to back it up. “Burden of proof and all that.”

You need to tell me what you mean by "god." See, if I come up with the definition, you'll accuse me of using a "straw god." Burden of proof, and all that.

You need to tell us what is meant by "god" and then we'll go to work seeing if there's a disproof for it. If your definition is so vague as to be untestable, one will then wonder how one can claim existence of such a thing that has no effect that is tangible or detectable.

The plan here is to spend 50 pages farting around with dictionaries and pseudo-logic - not interested, sorry. We all fully understand what a decent enough god would be, why don't you pick a defininition that you're happiest with then use science to disprove it and we'll see how you get on.

You have to go first.

Nope. Your claim, your go, I'm all ears.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 405 by Rrhain, posted 02-24-2018 11:47 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Rrhain, posted 02-25-2018 6:27 AM Tangle has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 407 of 489 (828843)
02-25-2018 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by Tangle
02-25-2018 3:39 AM


Tangle responds to me:

quote:
Sure I know what the process is and yes I did read your post. To remind you, it's for those making the claim to back it up. “Burden of proof and all that.”

So why did you not provide your definition of "god"? There's no need to disprove undefined things for things without definition necessarily don't exist.

quote:
The plan here is to spend 50 pages farting around with dictionaries and pseudo-logic - not interested, sorry.

You're the one that wanted to see the disproof of god. There's nobody to blame but yourself for your inability to get the ball rolling by defining what you mean by "god." After all, I already gave one example of a disproof of god:

If the definition of "god" includes a universe that is only 6000 years old with a worldwide flood about 2250 BCE that killed all of humanity save for 8 individuals, then god clearly does not exist for the universe is billions of years old, there was no global flood in 2250, nor was the population of humanity reduced to 8 individuals.

If X, then Y.
~Y, therefore ~X.

It's like you've never heard of the "contrapositive."

"But that's not what I mean by 'god'!" Yes, I'm sure it isn't (though it is to at least one person on this board.) That's why we're waiting on you to provide your definition. That you aren't up to providing it because you think it's going to be tedious (my prediction, on the other hand, will be a bunch of ad hoc alterations to the definition and/or a definition so vague as to not actually define anything), well, that's your problem.

You're the one who wanted to see how it was done.

But you're the one who needs to get the ball rolling. What do you mean by "god"?

quote:
We all fully understand what a decent enough god would be, why don't you pick a defininition that you're happiest with then use science to disprove it and we'll see how you get on.

Already done. In fact, this makes twice now that I've presented it to you.

Is this going to be a variation on the theme of the questions people refuse to answer where I give you the same example over and over and you just ignore it as if that will make it go away while you try to distract and obfuscate in a desperate hope that we won't notice?

See, I gave a definition of "god." I then disproved it. Are we done here?

Or will there now be an ad hoc alteration of the definition coming?

quote:
quote:
You have to go first.

Nope. Your claim, your go, I'm all ears.

Nope. Your claim, your go. If you say one can't disprove god, then you need to define what is meant by "god." If I do it, you'll simply claim that's not what you meant by "god," so save us all the trouble and tell us what you mean.

Remember, the default state is that there is no god. It is up to those who claim there is one to show evidence of such. And if they can't even define what they mean by "god," how can it be said to exist?

Things without definition necessarily don't exist. Note, not that we don't currently know what the definition is but instead that there can be no definition. If it can't be defined, how can it exist?

So, if you're going to abandon your burden, then my job is truly easy:

Things with no definition do not exist.
"God" has no definition.
Therefore, "god" does not exist.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2018 3:39 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 408 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2018 9:43 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6240
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 408 of 489 (828846)
02-25-2018 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 407 by Rrhain
02-25-2018 6:27 AM


Rrhain writes:

So, if you're going to abandon your burden, then my job is truly easy:

It's your claim. So off you go, prove it. That's how it works. And no, I'm not going to argue definitions with you, pick you hardest one you like.

Things with no definition do not exist.
"God" has no definition.
Therefore, "god" does not exist.

This is crap logic, everything in the universe existed before we defined it. But no matter, just get on with the job of proving god doesn't exist with science, not word play.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 407 by Rrhain, posted 02-25-2018 6:27 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 3:50 AM Tangle has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 409 of 489 (828857)
02-25-2018 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by Phat
02-24-2018 2:30 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:

And yet we were created in His imagination.


You're creating a God in your imagination Who creates everything in His imagination. And you constantly accuse me of wanting to be my own God.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by Phat, posted 02-24-2018 2:30 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:33 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 410 of 489 (828860)
02-25-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 409 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:26 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
You're creating a God in your imagination Who creates everything in His imagination. And you constantly accuse me of wanting to be my own God.

Could be. Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 409 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:26 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:35 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 411 of 489 (828861)
02-25-2018 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 410 by Phat
02-25-2018 1:33 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:

Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?


I can describe a carrot because I've seen one. How do you describe something you can't see? Worse than that, how do you describe something that you imagine is deliberately hiding from you?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:48 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 412 of 489 (828865)
02-25-2018 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 411 by ringo
02-25-2018 1:35 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
I can describe a carrot because I've seen one. How do you describe something you can't see? Worse than that, how do you describe something that you imagine is deliberately hiding from you?
Well you are off to a good start! You are describing your frustration---at some earlier point in your life--of being unable to find the God that other children could describe so easily. Of course since that early learning experience, you may well have concluded that they were simply copying off of the papers of others who had claimed to see such a God, while you yourself stood still like the child in The Emperors New Clothes who cries out "But he isn't wearing anything at all!"

You have since confirmed--at least in your own mind--that God is not hiding---He simply does not exist. Since you adopted science and evidence as your criteria for everything, you quite naturally cannot describe a hidden concept.

So back to my question.

Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?
Logically, the answer is no. It is not possible.

So try creating this God that was hiding. What attributes does he have? How does He feel about you or I? Or anything, for that matter?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 411 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 1:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 2:01 PM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 413 of 489 (828867)
02-25-2018 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 412 by Phat
02-25-2018 1:48 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:

... you may well have concluded that they were simply copying off of the papers of others who had claimed to see such a God....


One of the signs of copying is that they all make the same mistakes.

Phat writes:

So back to my question.

Is it possible to simply describe a God who may exist without necessarily creating Him?

Logically, the answer is no. It is not possible.

Logically, the answer is yes. I can describe a one-legged pirate and by describing him, I create him.

Phat writes:

So try creating this God that was hiding.


You've already done that, so I'll just go with your description.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 412 by Phat, posted 02-25-2018 1:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 11:16 AM ringo has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 414 of 489 (828880)
02-26-2018 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 408 by Tangle
02-25-2018 9:43 AM


Tangle responds to me:

quote:
It's your claim.

Only when there's a definition of "god."

Otherwise, as I said before and am having to repeat because you refuse to engage:

Things without definition necessarily don't exist.

Because you refuse to define what is meant by "god," then god clearly cannot exist.

If you find this unsatisfying, then you must submit to your burden of proof. You're the one who claimed that it is impossible to disprove god. I say that I can, but I need to know what you mean by "god." After all, you wouldn't accept anybody saying that evolution couldn't be disproven and then refusing to define what they meant by "evolution."

What makes you think you can get away with it when the subject is god?

quote:
So off you go, prove it.

Already did. You need to read the posts before you respond to them. It makes things much easier.

quote:
That's how it works.

Nope. That's precisely backwards. You're the one making the claim that god cannot be disproven. Therefore, you are the one with the burden of proof which requires you to define what you mean by "god."

If you refuse, then the disproof is trivial:

Things without definition do not exist.

quote:
And no, I'm not going to argue definitions with you, pick you hardest one you like.

Already did. Twice. You need to read the posts before you respond to them. It makes things much easier.

quote:
This is crap logic, everything in the universe existed before we defined it.

Once again, you need to read the posts before you respond to them. It makes things much easier.

As I explicitly pointed out, I am not talking about things with unknown definitions but rather things that have no definition. Not that you "don't" know but rather that you "can't."

If the object you are claiming exists cannot be defined in any way, no matter the scenario, then how can it be said to exist? Don't play dumb and pretend we're talking about mere ignorance. This is an existential question. Not that the definition hasn't made itself apparent but that the definition can never be apparent. Existence creates definition. Without definition, there is no existence.

If X, then Y.
~Y, therefore ~X.

It's like you've never heard of the "contrapositive."

quote:
But no matter, just get on with the job of proving god doesn't exist with science, not word play.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

For someone who complained about the tediousness and is now complaining about "wordplay," you seem to be doing everything you can to make this more tedious specifically through wordplay, specifically equivocation.

Define what you mean by "god."

If you refuse, then the task is trivial:

Things without definition do not exist.
"God" has no definition for you refuse to provide one.
Therefore, "god" does not exist.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 408 by Tangle, posted 02-25-2018 9:43 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by Tangle, posted 02-26-2018 5:51 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6240
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 415 of 489 (828881)
02-26-2018 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 414 by Rrhain
02-26-2018 3:50 AM


Rrhain writes:

Only when there's a definition of "god."

Look, you claimed to be able to disprove the existence of God using science. I therefore expect you to know what a god is and use science to disprove it. I expect you to be able to point to substantial peer reviewed research in an authorative publication to back it up. That's how science is done.

If you can't even get started without resorting to fake debating tactics I can only assume that you're full of crap.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 414 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 3:50 AM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 421 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 9:38 PM Tangle has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 416 of 489 (828882)
02-26-2018 10:39 AM


Knock Knock Knocking Down Straw Gods
You two are something else! It is almost as if you are challenging each other to make the first move so that the other one can counter it.

I'll start by defining God. Keep in mind, however, that my defining Him is nott intended to be my creating Him. I believe that since He is the uncaused first cause, He defined/created all of us before any one of us imagined/defined Him.(and I use "Him" only as a reference and not as a gender definition. )

So to begin with, I would define God as the Creator of ideas, definitions, concepts, matter, energy, and ultimately reality itself as we collectively experience and understand it to be. Logically, if God exists and always has existed, God would have transcended all human religious definitions and attempts at definition.

Thats my subjective definition, for starters.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 9:50 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 417 of 489 (828885)
02-26-2018 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by ringo
02-25-2018 2:01 PM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:

So try creating this God that was hiding.


ringo writes:

You've already done that, so I'll just go with your description.

It's your story---how could I create the god that you claimed was hidden?

Or did you mean metaphorically hidden---as in invisible, hence logically non-existent?

I shall submit your truth claim to the court for further review.

I argue that by using the term "hidden" we should assume that you have something to hide.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by ringo, posted 02-25-2018 2:01 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 02-26-2018 11:34 AM Phat has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 15577
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


(1)
Message 418 of 489 (828886)
02-26-2018 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by Phat
02-26-2018 11:16 AM


Re: A God By Any Other Name
Phat writes:

It's your story---how could I create the god that you claimed was hidden?


You're the one who claims he's hiding, aren't you? Haven't you said that He doesn't show Himself because He wants us to have faith?

Phat writes:

I argue that by using the term "hidden" we should assume that you have something to hide.


Indeed. Why doesn't He preach in stadiums like Billy Graham?

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 11:16 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 419 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 4:37 PM ringo has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11416
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 419 of 489 (828897)
02-26-2018 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 418 by ringo
02-26-2018 11:34 AM


God and Football
His followers advertise, but apparently, the crowd-at-large prefers sports.

ringo writes:

Why doesn't He preach in stadiums like Billy Graham?

Some would say that he used Billy to do the job. Others may argue that Jesus---even if He lived in todays culture--would never do such a thing. You would be more likely to find God hanging out down with your homeless friends..

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by ringo, posted 02-26-2018 11:34 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 420 by Rrhain, posted 02-26-2018 9:14 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 426 by ringo, posted 02-27-2018 10:45 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 420 of 489 (828907)
02-26-2018 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 419 by Phat
02-26-2018 4:37 PM


Re: God and Football
I'll just leave this here:


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by Phat, posted 02-26-2018 4:37 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
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