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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 451 of 489 (829561)
03-09-2018 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 450 by Phat
03-09-2018 12:11 PM


Re: The Irony
Phat writes:

I was there. I watched the debate and the audience reactions. If my apologetics had any influence, it certainly didn't make me less honest.


You may be honest here too when you try to psychoanalyze me - but being honest doesn't make you right. We know you see what you want to see.

An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 450 by Phat, posted 03-09-2018 12:11 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5669
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 452 of 489 (829567)
03-09-2018 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
03-09-2018 10:06 AM


Re: The Irony
Phat writes:

The atheist ended up winning the debate due to superior logic, but the attitude was one of intellectual smugness and contrasted with the humility of the Christians.

You prefer to be humble and wrong to smug and right?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 03-09-2018 10:06 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 453 of 489 (829573)
03-09-2018 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by Tangle
03-09-2018 2:50 AM


Tangle runs away:

quote:
quote:
Incorrect. What I want are physical traits that can be compared against reality to determine if there are contradictions for if there are, then that means god does not exist.

Then I suggest you get on with it. Do what you claimed to be able to do, else stfu. I'm not going to do your work for you.

Already done.

In three different ways (Message 400, Message 405, Message 422).

And posted here multiple times (Message 407, Message 414, Message 434).

You even repeated one of them (Message 430).

So it appears you did do my work for me after I showed you how to do it.

If you disagree with the disproofs, it would behoove you to be specific as to why. Is the definition of "god" incorrect? If so, how? What is the correct definition of "god"? You're the one saying that god cannot be disproven, therefore it is your burden to define what is meant by "god."

Spin the merry-go-round, Tangle. I'm sure you'll get something new.

C'mon...you know you want to.

SPIN IT!


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Tangle, posted 03-09-2018 2:50 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 456 by Tangle, posted 03-10-2018 3:23 AM Rrhain has responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 454 of 489 (829574)
03-09-2018 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 447 by Phat
03-09-2018 10:06 AM


Re: The Irony
Phat writes:

quote:
Which I think speaks volumes.

Indeed...the silence coming from you regarding my response to your "god" does speak volumes.

By the way: I have never said I was an atheist. It's very telling of you to presume that.

And I'll leave your self-indulgence regarding "humility" at that.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Phat, posted 03-09-2018 10:06 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 455 of 489 (829577)
03-09-2018 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Phat
03-09-2018 10:10 AM


Re: Believe It Or Not
Phat responds to me:

quote:
But that's the essence of belief. The definition is not based on logic or fact.It is based on belief.

Irrelevant. I never said the definition was based on logic or fact. I merely said it existed. Are you honestly saying that believers in god don't have any conceptualization of what it is they believe in? No concept at all? That "god" is a meaningless term that they spend their time and energy in devotion to? It doesn't matter where it comes from or how it is constructed. The vending machine doesn't care if the quarter you stick into it came from the Denver or the Philadelphia mint. So long as it is the right shape, weight, etc. it is considered a "quarter."

It doesn't matter where your definition of "god" comes from so long as there is a definition.

quote:
To actually make up one's own story in order to define the God in whom they believe seems a bit far-fetched.

And yet that's what lots of people are doing. They aren't happy with the definitions of "god" that they are getting from organized religion and yet they can't shake the idea that "something" is out there ("Look-around-you"-ism), so they define "god" on their own terms. For crying out loud, even members of a particular sect have this. You don't honestly think that all the Catholics in the world, all 1.2 billion of them, have the same understanding of what "god" is, do you? Protestants and Catholics certainly don't agree on everything ascribed to "god" despite both claiming to be "Christian"...to the point that certain Protestants claim that Catholics aren't Christian and the official position of the Catholic church is that the Protestants are misguided. And that ignores how the Orthodox fit into it.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 03-09-2018 10:10 AM Phat has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5669
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 456 of 489 (829591)
03-10-2018 3:23 AM
Reply to: Message 453 by Rrhain
03-09-2018 5:28 PM


Rrhain writes:

Is the definition of "god" incorrect? If so, how?

If you need to get into a Monty Python definitional debate about what words mean, you've failed before you've begun.

If your entire point is that people have many different ideas of what god is, well, hoozah! Who knew? But you claimed you could disprove god using science. Let's see you disprove them all one by one followed by the general concept of God itself. Off you go. Get back to me when your book is published.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 453 by Rrhain, posted 03-09-2018 5:28 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 457 by Rrhain, posted 03-13-2018 8:27 PM Tangle has responded

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 457 of 489 (829781)
03-13-2018 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 456 by Tangle
03-10-2018 3:23 AM


Tangle runs away:

quote:
quote:
Is the definition of "god" incorrect? If so, how?

If you need to get into a Monty Python definitional debate about what words mean, you've failed before you've begun.

You're the one saying that "god" cannot be disproven. Therefore, you're the one with the burden of proof on defining "god." Otherwise, you will claim "straw godding" (and rightfully so).

The fact that you refuse to define what you mean indicates that your claim is false since things without definition do not exist.

quote:
If your entire point is that people have many different ideas of what god is

Nope. That isn't it at all. Try again. If you had been paying attention to the posts to which you are responding, you would know this.

Hint: Does the phrase "ad hoc" mean anything to you? What about "null hypothesis"?

Let me give you a more nuanced response: Believers are already certain that other people's "gods" don't exist (exercise for the reader: How? What arguments are used by believers?) Thus, we're only looking at one definition. That's why we need the person who is claiming that god cannot be disproven to define what it is they mean by "god."

quote:
But you claimed you could disprove god using science. Let's see you disprove them all one by one followed by the general concept of God itself.

What do you mean by a "general concept of god itself"? Such a definition would necessarily be acceptable to all who believe in god, wouldn't it? Therefore, you're the one with the burden of proof on defining "god." Otherwise, you will claim "straw godding" (and rightfully so).

The fact that you refuse to define what you mean indicates that your claim is false since things without definition do not exist.

Off you go. Get back to me when you have decided to justify your own argument.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 456 by Tangle, posted 03-10-2018 3:23 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 458 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2018 3:42 AM Rrhain has responded
 Message 466 by Phat, posted 03-16-2018 12:15 PM Rrhain has responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5669
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 458 of 489 (829783)
03-14-2018 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 457 by Rrhain
03-13-2018 8:27 PM


Rrhain writes:

Off you go. Get back to me when you have decided to justify your own argument.

My argument is that no-one has yet proven the non-existence of god, scientifically or otherwise. That's non-contraversial. You claim you can, so get on with it or shut up. I'm not doing your work for you.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 457 by Rrhain, posted 03-13-2018 8:27 PM Rrhain has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 459 by kjsimons, posted 03-14-2018 9:25 AM Tangle has responded
 Message 470 by Rrhain, posted 03-18-2018 12:00 AM Tangle has responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 657
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


Message 459 of 489 (829792)
03-14-2018 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 458 by Tangle
03-14-2018 3:42 AM


Tangle writes:

My argument is that no-one has yet proven the non-existence of god, scientifically or otherwise. That's non-contraversial.

I'm with Rrhain on this, which god where has ever really been defined? There are stories of gods galore, but no real usable definition of one. Everyone seems to have their own personal definition of what god is which seems to point to each of us creating our own nonexistent personal god. Without a clear god to disprove, it would be a fool's errand to even try.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 458 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2018 3:42 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 460 by Tangle, posted 03-14-2018 3:00 PM kjsimons has not yet responded
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 03-16-2018 3:54 AM kjsimons has responded

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 5669
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 460 of 489 (829808)
03-14-2018 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 459 by kjsimons
03-14-2018 9:25 AM


Kj writes:

I'm with Rrhain on this, which god where has ever really been defined? There are stories of gods galore, but no real usable definition of one. Everyone seems to have their own personal definition of what god is which seems to point to each of us creating our own nonexistent personal god. Without a clear god to disprove, it would be a fool's errand to even try.

I agree it’s a fool’s errand, unfortunately Rrhain said he could do it.

Now if he wants a discussion about what a God is he’s quite welcome to start a new thread; I won’t be joining it. Meanwhile, he’s left himself the large job of not only disproving all the individual theistic gods we’ve made up for all of our religions but also the deistic disinterested gods that made the soil we stand on and usually everything else as well but seemingly take no further interest. Worthy of a book or two I think.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by kjsimons, posted 03-14-2018 9:25 AM kjsimons has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 471 by Rrhain, posted 03-18-2018 12:03 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10755
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 461 of 489 (829887)
03-16-2018 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 459 by kjsimons
03-14-2018 9:25 AM


My only problem with this logic trail is that it serves to put God in a box, so to speak...insisting that without our ability to define something it then follows that something doesn't exist.

By the way, what do you think of this oft-quoted logic?
https://www.facebook.com/...48475716/videos/2017210351654239


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 459 by kjsimons, posted 03-14-2018 9:25 AM kjsimons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 462 by kjsimons, posted 03-16-2018 9:30 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 463 by Stile, posted 03-16-2018 10:16 AM Phat has responded
 Message 465 by ringo, posted 03-16-2018 11:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
kjsimons
Member
Posts: 657
From: Orlando,FL
Joined: 06-17-2003


(1)
Message 462 of 489 (829889)
03-16-2018 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
03-16-2018 3:54 AM


re: Holier than thou anti-atheist quote
Phat writes:

By the way, what do you think of this oft-quoted logic?

Quote linked to by Phat:

"I'd rather live my life as if there is a God and die and find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

The faulty logic here is basically assuming that "living as if God doesn't exist" is a bad and evil thing. I live my life as a human which means I have empathy for my fellow humans and try to help out the less fortunate to the best of my abilities and to enjoy my existence without harming others, you know, the golden rule. Believing in God would only mean that I would be following the tenets of my faith, whatever that may be. The quote is also biased toward monotheism, which is a slap in the face to any polytheistic religious followers. It's a quote of a small minded person.

In short, the quote is insulting.

Edited by kjsimons, : missing backslash


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 03-16-2018 3:54 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3167
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 463 of 489 (829890)
03-16-2018 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
03-16-2018 3:54 AM


quote:
I'd rather live my life as if there is a God and die and find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.

This only makes sense if you think God would be a dick and think negatively about someone who doesn't believe in God when there is no evidence of God.

if you think God is at least normal (not even "good") then there's no reason to suggest God would think negatively about someone who doesn't believe in God when there is no evidence of God.

Therefore, if you think God is at least normal, it makes much more sense this way around:

I'd rather live my life as if there is no God and die to find out there is, than live my life as if there is and die to find out there isn't.

In this scenario let's look at the first part:

Person leads a good life not believing in God.
Person dies.
Person finds out God actually exists.
God isn't a dick, though, God is at least normal and God's reaction is: Ha ha, funny, eh? I do exist! Nice life, though... you did fine, I'll treat you as well as any believer.

And the second part:

Person leads a good life believing in God.
Person dies.
Person finds out God actually did not exist.
Therefore, all the time and effort put into "believing in God" was completely wasted and could have been focused on living an even better "good life."

So, we have to balance between two things:

1 - No loss at all, outcome is what it would be anyway.
2 - Waste of time and energy while alive.

The choice seems obvious to me.

The only way believing-in-God-just-in-case-God-exists-over-Him-not-existing makes sense to gamble for is if you think God is a dick. Otherwise, there's nothing to worry about anyway.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 03-16-2018 3:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 464 by Phat, posted 03-16-2018 11:54 AM Stile has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10755
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 464 of 489 (829894)
03-16-2018 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 463 by Stile
03-16-2018 10:16 AM


Gods attitude towards our "attitudes"
Not sure I understand...
Person finds out God actually did not exist.
Therefore, all the time and effort put into "believing in God" was completely wasted and could have been focused on living an even better "good life."
Perhaps someone could have saved a lot of time,but what effort is wasted in belief? I ask myself what I would do that would lead to my life being any better than it is now?

Stile writes:

This only makes sense if you think God would be a dick and think negatively about someone who doesn't believe in God...

Good point, unless Gods concern was not the belief itself but the attitude carried with it. Believers are as guilty of this as anyone.
kjsimons writes:

The quote is also biased toward monotheism, which is a slap in the face to any polytheistic religious followers.

This whole idea of trying to please everyone and not offend anyone is unrealistic. Everything that we as a society do is likely insulting to someone

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 463 by Stile, posted 03-16-2018 10:16 AM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 467 by kjsimons, posted 03-16-2018 12:33 PM Phat has responded
 Message 468 by Stile, posted 03-16-2018 12:40 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 472 by Rrhain, posted 03-18-2018 12:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 14570
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 465 of 489 (829895)
03-16-2018 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 461 by Phat
03-16-2018 3:54 AM


quote:
"I'd rather live my life as if there is a God and die and find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is."

If there was no God, would you help the poor?

There isn't, and I still do.


An honest discussion is more of a peer review than a pep rally. My toughest critics here are the people who agree with me. -- ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 461 by Phat, posted 03-16-2018 3:54 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
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