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Author Topic:   faith based science?
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 106 of 171 (677295)
10-29-2012 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by NoNukes
10-29-2012 1:33 AM


no nukes writes:

Similarly, energy and matter produce space-time curvature

That is unfounded speculation. On the other hand, it is proven that energy produces velocity and acceleration.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 1:33 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by NoNukes, posted 10-29-2012 1:43 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9551
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 107 of 171 (677296)
10-29-2012 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:37 AM


That is unfounded speculation. On the other hand, it is proven that energy produces velocity and acceleration.

If matter and energy did produce space-time curvature, would that mean that curvature is a manifestation? I'm just trying to nail down what a manifestation is.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
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NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9551
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 108 of 171 (677298)
10-29-2012 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:28 AM


To make something manifest is to make it detectable in a physical way.

I am familiar with this definition of manifestation. But this cannot possibly be what you mean when you say that momentum is a manifestation of matter.

I'm not sure where this is going. There is plenty entity of evidence that Einstein's formulation of the general relativity is correct. No I am not able to directly observed curved space-time, but I am able to observe the effects of such curving. General relativity isn't idle speculation.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


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 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12688
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 109 of 171 (677303)
10-29-2012 2:46 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:39 AM


quote:

Acceleration and velocity are manifestations of energy. Momentum is a manifestation of mass or vice versa really. What is "space time" a manifestation of ?

Without space and time you cannot have velocity or acceleration, nor can you have momentum without velocity. Space and time are fundamental to physics. And if you wish to exclude them then you must also exclude velocity or acceleration or momentum.


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 Message 101 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:39 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1381 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 110 of 171 (677310)
10-29-2012 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:28 AM


Massless momentum of a photon is one of the delicious heights of the human absurdity.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 1:28 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 10-29-2012 3:01 PM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3941
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 111 of 171 (677339)
10-29-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by foreveryoung
10-28-2012 11:48 PM


I agree.

Christians should be well versed in and live their lives as the Bible instructs.

I'm not myself a Christian but I do get annoyed when so called Christians have no idea about the Bible or what it says about Jesus.


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by foreveryoung, posted 10-28-2012 11:48 PM foreveryoung has not yet responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 121 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 112 of 171 (677345)
10-29-2012 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 1:28 AM


I'll ask you the same question I asked Alfred, that he doesn't seem to be able to answer.

How do you explain the phenomenon of gravitational lensing?


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


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Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 113 of 171 (677406)
10-29-2012 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by foreveryoung
10-29-2012 12:15 AM


But is physics studying merely a mathematical abstraction or something they can prove interacts with the world of matter and energy?

I don't know why you felt the need to put "merely" in there, but that is the jist of it. Physicists construct abstract mathematical models and then test reality to see how close those constructs come to the real thing. It is what physicists have been doing since empiricism became a part of science.

How do you think physics should work? Should physicists make pronouncements from a pulipit and require everyone to believe what the say without any evidence to back it up? This isn't creationism you know.


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 Message 99 by foreveryoung, posted 10-29-2012 12:15 AM foreveryoung has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 114 of 171 (677409)
10-29-2012 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-29-2012 4:47 AM


Massless momentum of a photon is one of the delicious heights of the human absurdity.

So I suppose Compton Scattering doesn't exist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-29-2012 4:47 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 3:01 AM Taq has responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1381 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


Message 115 of 171 (677469)
10-30-2012 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Taq
10-29-2012 3:01 PM


Irrelevant. Photon is a mathematical object. It is a quantity of motion translated called energy in the jargon. That in turn could be reduced to potential distance travelled by an object. A length. That itself may not travel or be scattered which is a kind of travelling. Impossible.
Wave requires a medium necessarily. Waving nothing, or waving vacuum, space-time or whatever the euphemism might be is not allowed by Mother Nature. Impossible and highly irrational proposition. It is one thing to admit, well, we just do not know what the medium might be or we just cannot conceptualise it to date, and another thing to insist that there may be exceptions to the rule and it is just that Mother Nature is a weird momma. Well, she is certainly not.

Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Taq, posted 10-29-2012 3:01 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-30-2012 10:20 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded
 Message 117 by Taq, posted 10-30-2012 10:47 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11352
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(3)
Message 116 of 171 (677509)
10-30-2012 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-30-2012 3:01 AM


You're funny. While you're proclaiming all these things to be impossible, scientists are busy studying and measuring those things.

They can measure the energy differneces in the photon and the electron after the scattering:

And yet you simply proclaim that what they are sitting there doing is impossible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 3:01 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 8:38 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.3


(2)
Message 117 of 171 (677516)
10-30-2012 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein
10-30-2012 3:01 AM


Irrelevant. Photon is a mathematical object. It is a quantity of motion translated called energy in the jargon. That in turn could be reduced to potential distance travelled by an object. A length. That itself may not travel or be scattered which is a kind of travelling. Impossible.

The fact of the matter is that the mathematical model for photons does include momentum. This is based on evidence, not faith.

Wave requires a medium necessarily. Waving nothing, or waving vacuum, space-time or whatever the euphemism might be is not allowed by Mother Nature.

Then please cite the experiments which demonstrate that this medium exists. Otherwise, your claims are simply based on faith.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 3:01 AM Alfred Maddenstein has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Alfred Maddenstein, posted 10-30-2012 2:30 PM Taq has responded
 Message 119 by foreveryoung, posted 10-30-2012 2:58 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Alfred Maddenstein
Member (Idle past 1381 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 04-01-2011


(1)
Message 118 of 171 (677543)
10-30-2012 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Taq
10-30-2012 10:47 AM


Irrelevant. Wave is what an object or medium does, not what anything is. No medium, no wave. Zero dimensional entities do not qualify as objects. Sorry. You persist in being absurd after your beloved authorities. You can shake a hand, can you hand a shake? If you can send it to the cat by the morning post.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Taq, posted 10-30-2012 10:47 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Taq, posted 10-30-2012 4:09 PM Alfred Maddenstein has not yet responded

  
foreveryoung
Member
Posts: 879
Joined: 12-26-2011


Message 119 of 171 (677548)
10-30-2012 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Taq
10-30-2012 10:47 AM


Please demonstrate how a wave can propagate without a medium.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Taq, posted 10-30-2012 10:47 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by subbie, posted 10-30-2012 3:26 PM foreveryoung has acknowledged this reply
 Message 126 by NoNukes, posted 10-30-2012 7:48 PM foreveryoung has responded

    
subbie
Member (Idle past 121 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 120 of 171 (677554)
10-30-2012 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by foreveryoung
10-30-2012 2:58 PM


Please answer my question about gravitational lensing.

Edited by AdminModulous, : off topic hidden


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by foreveryoung, posted 10-30-2012 2:58 PM foreveryoung has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by AdminModulous, posted 10-30-2012 3:54 PM subbie has acknowledged this reply

  
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