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Author Topic:   Introduction to Genetics
Taq
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 151 of 233 (719800)
02-18-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Faith
02-15-2014 3:54 AM


Re: Paradigm clash
You can't prove that mutations do anything but damage DNA.

Chimps have about 40 million places where their DNA sequence differs from our own. If changes to the human genome can only produce damage, then how can chimps get along just fine, and even thrive, with 40 million pieces of damage in their genome? As we move elsewhere in the animal kingdom we see even more differences from the human genome, and once again those species are thriving.

Reality shows that genomes can be different without causing harm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Faith, posted 02-15-2014 3:54 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by JonF, posted 02-18-2014 12:13 PM Taq has responded
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 02-18-2014 2:47 PM Taq has responded

  
JonF
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Member Rating: 2.8


Message 152 of 233 (719811)
02-18-2014 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Taq
02-18-2014 11:04 AM


Paradigm Clash
She doesn't think that chimps have 40 million places of damage relative to their "original ancestors".
This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 11:04 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 12:20 PM JonF has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 153 of 233 (719815)
02-18-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by JonF
02-18-2014 12:13 PM


Re: Paradigm Clash
She doesn't think that chimps have 40 million places of damage relative to their "original ancestors".

Her argument is that changes to the human genome can only produce damage. The test for that is to see if genomes different than ours result in viable species. As it turns out, there are millions of species with genomes different than ours, and they are completely viable.

Obviously, the human genome can mutate without resulting in non-viable individuals.


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 Message 154 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2014 1:55 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 154 of 233 (719827)
02-18-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by Taq
02-18-2014 12:20 PM


Faitholution
Her argument is that changes to the human genome can only produce damage. ...

Welcome to Faitholution, where any term used by scientists is suspect because it implies that evolution is true, so she describes actual evolutionary processes but says that the terms are not appropriate ... hence subspecies and variability.

Her argument is that changes to the human genome can only produce damage. ...

Anything beneficial or neutral will be from hidden alleles from the original kind, anything deleterious will be mutations.

The test for that is to see if genomes ...

... show beneficial mutations that are not in previous genomes. Not that it will do any good ...

Edited by RAZD, : ,,,


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 155 of 233 (719830)
02-18-2014 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by Taq
02-18-2014 11:04 AM


Re: Paradigm clash
Reality shows that genomes can be different without causing harm.

Odd you would think I or anyone thought otherwise.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 11:04 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 4:48 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 156 of 233 (719845)
02-18-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Faith
02-18-2014 2:47 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
Odd you would think I or anyone thought otherwise.

"You can't prove that mutations do anything but damage DNA."--Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Faith, posted 02-18-2014 2:47 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by RAZD, posted 02-18-2014 5:18 PM Taq has not yet responded
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 02-18-2014 7:37 PM Taq has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 18241
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 157 of 233 (719848)
02-18-2014 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Taq
02-18-2014 4:48 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
Odd you would think I or anyone thought otherwise.

"You can't prove that mutations do anything but damage DNA."--Faith

Within each of the kind\clades ... of course she needs to establish the root kind\clade ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 4:48 PM Taq has not yet responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 158 of 233 (719861)
02-18-2014 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by Taq
02-18-2014 4:48 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
Genomes ARE different from kind to kind, and also through the processes that bring about subspecies.. Don't see what that has to do with mutations being destructive.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 4:48 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 9:48 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 159 of 233 (719866)
02-18-2014 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
02-18-2014 7:37 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
Genomes ARE different from kind to kind, and also through the processes that bring about subspecies.. Don't see what that has to do with mutations being destructive.

You are claiming that changing a genome is destructive. I am showing that genomes that are different from each other are just fine. Reality shows that you are wrong. Genomes can change in ways that are not destructive.

Also, until you have a way of objectively determining which species or subspecies belong to which kind it is a useless term.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 02-18-2014 7:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 02-18-2014 10:13 PM Taq has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 160 of 233 (719869)
02-18-2014 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Taq
02-18-2014 9:48 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
But I'm not claiming that changing a genome is even what happens when mutations change genes. It's still the same genome, but with unhealthy elements, such as junk DNA which is probably mostly the result of mutations, just as human beings are human beings even if suffering from genetic disease. There IS in a sense many ways a genome changes that have nothing to do with mutations, most of it having to do with normal routes to the formation of new species/subspecies/races.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 9:48 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 10:47 PM Faith has responded

    
Taq
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Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(2)
Message 161 of 233 (719873)
02-18-2014 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by Faith
02-18-2014 10:13 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
But I'm not claiming that changing a genome is even what happens when mutations change genes.

In reality, mutations change genomes. Are we talking about reality or not?

It's still the same genome, but with unhealthy elements, such as junk DNA which is probably mostly the result of mutations, just as human beings are human beings even if suffering from genetic disease.

Junk DNA is not unhealthy, first of all. If it was, it would be selected against. It isn't.

Mutations that cause genetic diseases are selected against. This is why genetic diseases like hemophilia are not spreading through the population at rates consistent with drift.

We also observe that each person is born with around 30 to 50 substitution mutations. Each person is not born with 30 to 50 genetic diseases.

Obviously, the vast bulk of mutations are not deleterious. That is what reality shows us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Faith, posted 02-18-2014 10:13 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 02-19-2014 12:55 AM Taq has responded
 Message 164 by Faith, posted 02-19-2014 1:04 AM Taq has responded

  
Faith
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Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 162 of 233 (719884)
02-19-2014 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Taq
02-18-2014 10:47 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
I don't mean that junk DNA is unhealthy in the sense that it causes disease, it is unhealthy in the sense that it represents a weakened genetic situation, being a lot of dead or half dead or nonfunctioning DNA that in former times was most likely protective of health in all kinds of ways. The junk DNA would not be selected against because it doesn't DO anything, it just occupies space in the genome like a cemetery.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 10:47 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 02-19-2014 1:01 AM Faith has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6014
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 163 of 233 (719886)
02-19-2014 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by Faith
02-19-2014 12:55 AM


Re: Paradigm clash
I don't mean that junk DNA is unhealthy in the sense that it causes disease, it is unhealthy in the sense that it represents a weakened genetic situation, being a lot of dead or half dead or nonfunctioning DNA that in former times was most likely protective of health in all kinds of ways.

I see a lot of claims, but zero evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Faith, posted 02-19-2014 12:55 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Faith, posted 02-19-2014 1:07 AM Taq has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 164 of 233 (719887)
02-19-2014 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Taq
02-18-2014 10:47 PM


Re: Paradigm clash
In reality, mutations change genomes. Are we talking about reality or not?

They don't change genomes in the absurd sense you were implying.

Junk DNA is not unhealthy, first of all. If it was, it would be selected against. It isn't.

Mutations that cause genetic diseases are selected against. This is why genetic diseases like hemophilia are not spreading through the population at rates consistent with drift.

However, there is an amazingly long list of genetic diseases and they do take their toll. The fact that such diseases are selected against is itself a toll on the human race for that matter, being the cause of death.

We also observe that each person is born with around 30 to 50 substitution mutations. Each person is not born with 30 to 50 genetic diseases. Obviously, the vast bulk of mutations are not deleterious. That is what reality shows us.

I'm aware that most mutations are "neutral" in that they don't do anything observable at all. However, since I regard them as a disease process in themselves, a destructive process, a mistake in the system, it seems likely that that so many of them lurking in each person's body represents some degree of compromise of the system's healthy function that isn't observable, but could accumulate over generations until it is observable.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Taq, posted 02-18-2014 10:47 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Taq, posted 02-19-2014 1:08 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 23978
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 165 of 233 (719888)
02-19-2014 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Taq
02-19-2014 1:01 AM


Re: Paradigm clash
The evidence is really mostly in what I hear from you all, about the LACK of evidence for beneficial mutations, plus the long long list of known genetic diseases. In reality YOU don't have any evidence for your belief that mutations are the source of normal alleles.

ABE: The claims otherwise are just a statement of my model, which is based on the expectation that life is deteriorating rather than evolving.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Taq, posted 02-19-2014 1:01 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Taq, posted 02-19-2014 1:09 AM Faith has responded

    
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