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Author Topic:   Ann Coulter (Is she hateful?)
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 117 of 274 (679176)
11-12-2012 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Modulous
11-12-2012 7:17 PM


Another case of cognitive dissonance
Hi Modulous et al
... actually I only read your first line. I haven't even read the rest of your post. I can only stand to read just so much of your guys posts on here. I just randomly light my eyes on something and I usually can't go very far before I have to respond. ... Feel fortunate that I responded to you at all.
After all, I spent considerably more time responding to you, than you did to me (that isn't a criticism, just a straight observation, I appreciate there are a variety of factors that explain this).
And one rather obvious factor is cognitive dissonance -- that the posts create such cognitive dissonance in foreveryoung that he can't stand to read them.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Modulous, posted 11-12-2012 7:17 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by foreveryoung, posted 11-12-2012 7:58 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(5)
Message 126 of 274 (679192)
11-12-2012 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by foreveryoung
11-12-2012 7:58 PM


Re: Another case of cognitive dissonance
Hi foreveryoung
They don't produce cognitive dissonance in me; they produce anger. ... I get angry because the way you argue and debate on here is deceitful in the extreme and often hateful and mocking.
Curiously, the anger is due to the cognitive dissonance (CD) between what the posts say and what you believe. The more you are emotionally attached to your beliefs the more you feel anger when they are threatened.
All people react this way, it is part of the "human condition" to react this way because we are essentially emotional beings with the ability to have a thin veneer of rational thoughts ... but not to the extent of being able to lose the emotional responses.
As I see it, there are two factors that contribute to the amount of CD:
  • the degree of disagreement between your belief and the presented information, and
  • the degree of emotional attachment you have to your belief.
The greater these are the more CD you (we) will experience.
It's the same kind of anger servicemen would feel in world war 2 while listening to tokyo rose. It is nothing but deceitful propaganda.
Yes, they were angry because her posts contradicted what they believed, and this caused CD in them that then caused anger. Anger is the first symptom of CD.
One way this CD (and the anger) is reduced by rejecting the contradictory information as false or intentional propaganda (as you have done and as military leaders did).
Another way is to show by evidence that the information actually is false.
The question remaining, then, is whether you can actually show that this is false information and propaganda, rather than just hiding behind it to salve your attachment to your beliefs.
Just claiming something - without providing any empirical objective evidence that it is so - is just making another blind assertion, creating another emotion based belief. It may satisfy you, but it certainly won't necessarily satisfy anyone else.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by foreveryoung, posted 11-12-2012 7:58 PM foreveryoung has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 11-12-2012 9:34 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 141 of 274 (679350)
11-13-2012 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jar
11-13-2012 10:24 AM


Re: A review of the thread and attempt to return to the topic
Hi jar,
As I said in my reply to him, "It's true that Ann Coulter is not fit to be in polite company, but she is not significant enough to be considered hateful. She's not significant enough to be considered much of anything for that matter; maybe about like the sophomoric loudmouth that tries to get a reaction by being vulgar but certainly no more significant than that.
Hateful Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
quote:
hate•ful
adjective
  1. arousing hate or deserving to be hated: the hateful oppression of dictators.
  2. unpleasant; dislikable; distasteful: She found her domestic chores hateful.
  3. full of or expressing hate; malignant; malevolent: a hateful denunciatory speech.

She is on the "hate radio" circuit and uses terminology that encourages hate among followers and anger in targets. She is certainly a provacateur in that regard.
But she's smart enough to know where the money is and there's gold to be mined in them their Christian Fundamentalist."
That certainly is a possibility, and fits with the behavior observed the limited times I have watched/listened to her. She was essentially asked this question while promoting her lates diatribe on "the View" and dodged the question rather than refuted or denied it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxLIPLU1yM8
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jar, posted 11-13-2012 10:24 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 180 of 274 (679530)
11-14-2012 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Faith
11-12-2012 9:34 PM


Re: Another case of cognitive dissonance
Hi Faith,
But I've got to say that this post is a bunch of blabbertygook. ...
See Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia
quote:
Cognitive dissonance is the term used in modern psychology to describe the state of people when holding two or more conflicting cognitions (e.g., ideas, beliefs, values, emotional reactions) simultaneously. In a state of dissonance, people may sometimes feel surprise, dread, guilt, anger, or embarrassment.[1] ...
Several examples are provided. This is a very real condition, and being able to recognize it in your own reactions as well as in the reactions of others can hopefully lead to more meaningful debate through understanding what is happening.
The reason foreveryoung gets angry is that, if he is a true Christian, which I don't know yet but hope he is, he hasn't brought his emotions and thoughts "captive" to Christ, or under the Lordship of Christ, which is hard work for all of us and I've certainly blown it big time myself.
Bringing your emotions under control is not a remedy for the cause of the anger, just a way of "treating" the symptom. If you understand the cause of the anger and can then work to reduce that, then the anger does not occur. People don't get angry when told that 1+1=2 when that is what their worldview also tells them. On the other hand if you are told that 1+1=10 you may feel confused, insulted or surprised, and perhaps get angry if the other person insists that 1+1=10 is true without providing the information that this is due to using binary (base 2) counting (10 in binary ≡ 2 in base 10)
But there are more proximal reasons, as they say, and EvC is a place to try one's patience if ever there was one.
That depends on how emotionally you are attached to your opinions\beliefs that are being challenged by contrary information.
Message 126: As I see it, there are two factors that contribute to the amount of CD:
  • the degree of disagreement between your belief and the presented information, and
  • the degree of emotional attachment you have to your belief.
The greater these are the more CD you (we) will experience.
In the science disciplines we are taught\encouraged to embrace tentative acceptance of ideas and concepts, while in most religions one is taught\encouraged to believe things on their face value or the word of an elder etc. -- this leads to conflicting information when they contradict each other.
Yet he did get his basic opinion said well enough on this thread right away. The President of Fordham accused Ann Coulter of "hate speech" and he objected to that as a hateful thing to say about her. I also don't follow Coulter much but what I've seen of her I've found to be funny and smart and insightful, and yes, very acerbic. ...
Actually he said she was a provocateur, someone who says things just to get a reaction. On internet boards her behavior would be classified as trolling: trying to provoke an angry response. She also is very free with the facts. My opinion is that she is deceitful, welcomed by the gullible because of who she attacks rather than because of what she says and whether or not it bears any resemblance to reality. I also think that she tries to be hateful while pretending to be innocent of being hateful.
I class her as an unreliable source of information, someone that will say anything to get a reaction, and thus not worth reading or listening to.
I eventually showed that the university itself is typically liberal although the liberals here didnt recognize it a ...
Actually, you showed that it embraces some liberal views regarding diversity, but not that the university as a whole was liberal. Curiously, I don't see diversity as being excluded from conservative values.
liberal and conservative are not black and white, but rather a spectrum.
... although the liberals here didnt recognize it and seemed to take offense at the obvious fact, which puzzles me, ...
Cognitive dissonance.
[center]1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10
   liberal                         conservative[/center]
When you stand at 3, everything to the right of you is conservative. When you stand at 7, everything to the left of you is liberal, and the two of you will disagree about 4, 5 and 6.
So there's a LOT of provocation here. We don't jneed the psychobabble unless you want to drive the guy over the cliff.
When you cannot read a post because your eyes glaze over, your mind rejects the information, and your somatic response move into anger mode, you can either think this is a normal everyday experience or you can understand the problem for what it is.
Understanding the problem is the first step in resolving it. The motto of this forum is "Understanding through Discussion" and a distinct part of this is understanding what is going on when there are two different viewpoints in conflict.
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : tries
Edited by RAZD, : ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 11-12-2012 9:34 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by foreveryoung, posted 11-14-2012 11:22 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 183 of 274 (679544)
11-14-2012 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by foreveryoung
11-14-2012 11:22 AM


scale and location
Hi foreveryoung
Why can't you get DrA and most others here to understand that. Most of you guys are 2 or less on that scale and that it why you see fordham university as conservative.
Curiously, I would put myself at 2 or less, and my opinion is that overall Fordham is slightly more conservative than liberal as it is a religious college with a conservative religious background, a 6 or possibly a 7.
[center]1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   10
 liberal                conservative[/center]
So where are you on the scale that you see it as liberal?
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : spacing

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by foreveryoung, posted 11-14-2012 11:22 AM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by foreveryoung, posted 11-14-2012 11:46 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 247 of 274 (679945)
11-16-2012 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by xongsmith
11-16-2012 1:59 PM


teach open-minded skepticism, logic and critical thinking
Hi xongsmith
I am hoping instead that the younger generation studies to this great depth from an open mind. Like a blank slate. They should be SAVED from the brainwashing of established religions. A brainwashed viewpoint, no matter how well-studied, is still a brainwashed viewpoint.
Indeed, and a history that is not the biased viewpoint of the victors of history. The history of native americans and their contribution to the concepts and ideas that went into the constitution, for example; the scandalous history of intentionally spreading sickness among native tribes to kill them off, for another. Good and bad not just the rosy glow of what you would like to believe occurred.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by xongsmith, posted 11-16-2012 1:59 PM xongsmith has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-16-2012 4:11 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1425 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 249 of 274 (679948)
11-16-2012 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by foreveryoung
11-14-2012 11:46 PM


Re: scale and location
Hi foreveryoung,
Look at it this way. Break the country up into percentiles with the 10 % who hold the most liberal values at 1 and the 10 % with the most conservative value at 10. I am probably at 8 very religious conservatives above me ...
So between your 8 and my 2 we disagree about whether the people between us are liberal or conservative. According to your breakdown that would be 60% of americans.
... and ayn rand types economically above me as well. ...
You mean those who accept pure fiction as an economic theory? Do you know than Rand lived on Social Security at the end?
... . The fact that fordham is religious doesn't make it conservative except on perhaps a few points like abortion and marriage. I wouldn't be surprised if fordham supports choice and gay marriage or believes the government should have no say in it.
Curiously, you are assuming positions you have no basis for assuming ... except for your personal perception that they are liberal.
Fordham being historically a catholic and jesuit university that espouses catholic and jesuit
quote:
The Mission of the University
Fordham University, the Jesuit University of New York, is committed to the discovery of Wisdom and the transmission of Learning, through research and through undergraduate, graduate and professional education of the highest quality. Guided by its Catholic and Jesuit traditions, Fordham fosters the intellectual, moral and religious development of its students and prepares them for leadership in a global society.
As a Catholic University . . .
Fordham affirms the complementary roles of faith and reason in the pursuit of wisdom and learning. The University encourages the growth of a life of faith consonant with moral and intellectual development. ...
Fordham gives special attention to the study of the living tradition of Catholicism, and it provides a place where religious traditions may interact with each other and with contemporary cultures.
As a Jesuit University . . .
Fordham draws its inspiration from the dual heritage of Christian Humanism and Ignatian Spirituality, and consequently sees all disciplines as potential paths to God. ...
Given the emphasis on Catholic and Jesuit teaching, I would be rather surprised if they supported abortion ...
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : 60%

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by foreveryoung, posted 11-14-2012 11:46 PM foreveryoung has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Tanypteryx, posted 11-16-2012 4:32 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 256 by foreveryoung, posted 11-19-2012 11:27 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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