Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 108 (8739 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-29-2017 7:19 AM
390 online now:
Faith, PaulK, RAZD, ThinAirDesigns, vimesey (5 members, 385 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Jayhawker Soule
Post Volume:
Total: 805,691 Year: 10,297/21,208 Month: 3,384/2,674 Week: 800/961 Day: 3/109 Hour: 1/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
1
2345Next
Author Topic:   Is the speed of light constant between galaxies?
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 1 of 66 (679683)
11-14-2012 1:43 PM


Dark matter found between galaxies http://www.space.com/...matter-filament-galaxy-clusters.html using gravitional lensing.
http://www.spacetelescope.org/news/heic1215/

Would light (photons) slow down going through these energies or would light bend around "dark matter" and follow its contours and nothing is where we believe (outside of our galaxy)?.HALL OF MIRRORS - SCATTERED PICTURES.

If 80-90% of universe is "dark matter" and light does not interact but bends around "dark matter" there would be alot of bending, so are the galaxies where we really think they are?

Which in turn would mean if we could ever fly through "dark matter" as the crow flys, could we reach a destination before light, that travels a long and winding path around the dark matter, which would be a long detour if dark matter makes up 80-90% of universe.

Or does light slow down while passing through dark matter like it does through glass, retaininng its light speed once it as passed through?

Would this also mean that neutrinos cannot travel faster than light but they can travel straighter than light, and pass through dark matter?

Is there any real proof, light speed is constant between galaxies?

Edited by sunshaker, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 11-14-2012 2:39 PM sunshaker has responded
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 11-15-2012 9:13 AM sunshaker has responded
 Message 39 by tesla, posted 11-16-2012 11:31 PM sunshaker has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12436
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 66 (679684)
11-14-2012 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sunshaker
11-14-2012 1:43 PM


Hi SunShaker,

I see two ways we could go with this:

  • I could tell you that light does not bend around dark matter like air around a car in a wind tunnel, and that light traveling directly at dark matter will travel straight through it, and that the gravity of dark matter bends light the same way as any other matter, and you could say, "Oh. Never mind."

  • Or, you could insist that you're correct and that light does actually bend around dark matter, in which case I'll promote this thread.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sunshaker, posted 11-14-2012 1:43 PM sunshaker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 5:58 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 3 of 66 (679685)
11-15-2012 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
11-14-2012 2:39 PM


There is much guess work about the properties of "dark matter", from what i can deduce light does not interact with dark matter, We can only summise where it is by the effects of gravitational lensing, if this is correct, with the amount of estimated dark matter in our "local universe", i see the possibility of it being like a "Maze" where light enters at one destination and exits at another or multiple others, so we are almost never looking directly at distant galaxies,
Perhaps something like how a periscope works.

Sometimes we need to think aloud, and see if we are missing something obvious, i have my picture of how it all fits together, but if i am wrong on parts of that picture it will not be a complete picture, so i would welcome any views on how dark matter effects "light".

Or if you wished i could add this to my last post
http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=16671 Alpha-Omega universes in freefall.

But i would prefere a new thread, as there are a few ideas i have about "dark matter" that i would like to ask those with a better idea than myself on sub atomic particles.

Edited by sunshaker, : added link to old post.

Edited by sunshaker, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 11-14-2012 2:39 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12436
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 66 (679687)
11-15-2012 8:59 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Is the speed of light constant between galaxies? thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5517
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 5 of 66 (679689)
11-15-2012 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sunshaker
11-14-2012 1:43 PM


I will simply point out that it is far from obvious what it might mean to say that the speed of light is constant.

One of the things that Einstein taught us, was there there can be no universal measuring scale. How we measure things, such as speed, will depend on our inertial frame.

The question, on whether the speed of light is constant, would seem to require a universal scale.


Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sunshaker, posted 11-14-2012 1:43 PM sunshaker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 10:12 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2012 1:15 PM nwr has acknowledged this reply
 Message 26 by AZPaul3, posted 11-16-2012 12:23 AM nwr has responded

  
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 6 of 66 (679695)
11-15-2012 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
11-15-2012 9:13 AM


As i said in my other thread, "I" believe "all" matter and energies came from "higher dimensional space" and we are expanding in "lower dimensional space" drawing in, infuseing our universe with lower d space as we continously expand,

Galaxies and star are in pockets of lower d space, and that is where we get the speed of light as a constant,
But once we leave a "galaxy bubble" we enter the realms of higher d space (dark matter-energies), where as before light travelled with no resistance through lower d space, it cannot pass through these higher d energies and can only follow the path of lower d space around these dark matter energies.

I was thinking as the universe continues to expand and we are infused with more lower d space, these dark matter-energies will continously be "pulled stretched" apart, allowing light and other energies to pass through? but not without some resistance.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 11-15-2012 9:13 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 11:48 AM sunshaker has responded

    
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 7 of 66 (679697)
11-15-2012 10:23 AM


I was also thinking, correct me if i am completely off track on this, That basically dark matter is a field of "ions", and as our universe continously expands it causes the ions to be electrcally charged and give of "gamma energy" which we see as these "gamma ray bursts", Seeding new areas of the universe with these new atoms.
Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 11:50 AM sunshaker has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6098
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 8 of 66 (679710)
11-15-2012 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by sunshaker
11-15-2012 10:12 AM


Galaxies and star are in pockets of lower d space, and that is where we get the speed of light as a constant,
But once we leave a "galaxy bubble" we enter the realms of higher d space (dark matter-energies), where as before light travelled with no resistance through lower d space, it cannot pass through these higher d energies and can only follow the path of lower d space around these dark matter energies.

But you never leave galaxies. Gravity attracts across all distances. There is nowhere in our universe where you are out of the gravity well of a star or galaxy. There is nowhere in our universe where spacetime is not being distorted by gravity.

If I understand my physics correctly, light bends in gravity wells because light does move at a constant speed. The curved path preserves the constant speed of light in areas with distorted spacetime.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 10:12 AM sunshaker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 12:59 PM Taq has responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6098
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 9 of 66 (679711)
11-15-2012 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by sunshaker
11-15-2012 10:23 AM


I was also thinking, correct me if i am completely off track on this, That basically dark matter is a field of "ions", and as our universe continously expands it causes the ions to be electrcally charged and give of "gamma energy" which we see as these "gamma ray bursts", Seeding new areas of the universe with these new atoms.

Electrons would produce Compton scattering which would be observed as blurred images or opaque areas where light does not pass. That is not what we observe. Dark matter does not appear to interact with light at all, outside of gravitational lensing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 10:23 AM sunshaker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 1:10 PM Taq has responded

  
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 10 of 66 (679720)
11-15-2012 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Taq
11-15-2012 11:48 AM


There are many galactic clusters we are part of one, but there is space between each galaxy as there is space between each star in a galaxy, space is different within our solar bubble "heliopause", to the space between each star in a galaxy which is different to the space between galaxies, each is made up of varying degrees of lower and higher dimensional energies, light travels at a constant within our solar bubble as most dark matter as been almost completely infused with lower d space, but between stars in a galaxy there is more higher d energies (dark matter) and between galaxies there is even more, these dark matter energies are continously still being broken down as the universe expands drawing in lower d space, And as you say lights bends in "gravity wells" and follows a curved path, so depending where light is coming from and the path it as to take around untold gravity wells through different densities of space, can we be sure where anything is?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 11:48 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 1:05 PM sunshaker has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6098
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 11 of 66 (679723)
11-15-2012 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by sunshaker
11-15-2012 12:59 PM


space is different within our solar bubble "heliopause",

Where did you demonstrate that?

each is made up of varying degrees of lower and higher dimensional energies,

Where is the evidence for this?

And as you say lights bends in "gravity wells" and follows a curved path, so depending where light is coming from and the path it as to take around untold gravity wells through different densities of space, can we be sure where anything is?

Of course we can. Light is bending around the Earth's gravity well right now. Do you have problems finding anything?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 12:59 PM sunshaker has not yet responded

  
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 12 of 66 (679724)
11-15-2012 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Taq
11-15-2012 11:50 AM


The ions in dark matter only have electrons when they have been electrically charged , this happens as the dark matter is pulled and stretched with the expanding universe, allowing lower d space to rush in, "washing" through dark matter collecting these newly charged particles and depositing them in pockets of lower d space(gamma ray bursts/ black holes), where stars and galaxies will eventually form.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 11:50 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2012 1:17 PM sunshaker has responded
 Message 17 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 1:51 PM sunshaker has responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9452
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 13 of 66 (679726)
11-15-2012 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nwr
11-15-2012 9:13 AM


The question, on whether the speed of light is constant, would seem to require a universal scale.

This turns out not to be the case. According to Einstein, the speed of light as measured by an observed does not depend on the motion of the observer as long as the observer is not accelerating. So a universal measure scale is not needed for the speed of light to be constant.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by nwr, posted 11-15-2012 9:13 AM nwr has acknowledged this reply

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9452
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 14 of 66 (679727)
11-15-2012 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by sunshaker
11-15-2012 1:10 PM


All ions have charges. That is part of their definition.

Why do you believe that gamma ray bursts are not associated with regular matter? What is your reason for requiring a dark matter ?explanation for either gamma ray bursts or black holes?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 1:10 PM sunshaker has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by sunshaker, posted 11-15-2012 1:47 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
sunshaker
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 49
From: England
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 15 of 66 (679734)
11-15-2012 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by NoNukes
11-15-2012 1:17 PM


I am not saying that gamma ray bursts are not associated with regular matter, a large percent are, but i do believe that "all" matter and energies(dark matter), first came from a higher dimension, which dropped into this lower d spaces and rapidly expanded, so all matter and energies used to be "dark matter",

when something rapidly expands there is a reaction, the result of this reaction is the matter and energies we now see,

the universe is still expanding and the reactions are still going on, dark matter is the catalyst for new "regular matter".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by NoNukes, posted 11-15-2012 1:17 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Taq, posted 11-15-2012 1:50 PM sunshaker has not yet responded

    
1
2345Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017