Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,402 Year: 3,659/9,624 Month: 530/974 Week: 143/276 Day: 17/23 Hour: 3/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Corporate Tax Evasion
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 76 of 100 (681971)
11-29-2012 9:21 AM


To get back on topic.
Starbucks here in the UK buys its coffee beans from that well known coffee growing country Switzerland.......
The fact is that Starbucks is competing unfairly with independent UK coffee shops because they pay sod all tax here. Stabucks can't afford not to be in the UK no matter what the tax rate is and UK wouldn't miss them for a blink of the eye if they did leave.
Amazon is the same, though Google may be rather more difficult to sort out.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 77 of 100 (681974)
11-29-2012 10:14 AM


pay sod all tax
My fellow Americans, I looked it up and "sod all" means "nothing".

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by vimesey, posted 11-29-2012 10:39 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 80 by onifre, posted 11-29-2012 10:54 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
vimesey
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 78 of 100 (681976)
11-29-2012 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by New Cat's Eye
11-29-2012 10:14 AM


"sod all" means "nothing".
Indeed ! Another good one is "sweet Fanny Adams", also meaning "nothing", but used more in place of a noun than an adjective
As in "How much UK tax did Starbucks pay last year ?" - "Sweet Fanny Adams !"
Edited by vimesey, : Example provided

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-29-2012 10:14 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2012 11:00 AM vimesey has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 79 of 100 (681980)
11-29-2012 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by vimesey
11-29-2012 10:39 AM


Abbreviated to SFA (which, of course, can have rather different words but the same acronym and meaning)
And, btw, 'fanny' has quite a different meaning here too.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by vimesey, posted 11-29-2012 10:39 AM vimesey has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 80 of 100 (682112)
11-29-2012 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by New Cat's Eye
11-29-2012 10:14 AM


Hey CS, I think foreverhere has a crush on you. You're the only one he doesn't jeer. I think he's tryna tell you something.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-29-2012 10:14 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-30-2012 10:02 AM onifre has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 100 (682158)
11-30-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by onifre
11-29-2012 10:54 PM


Well, I'm neither an uppity know it all brit nor a liberal communist hellbound degenerate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by onifre, posted 11-29-2012 10:54 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by onifre, posted 11-30-2012 5:16 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2972 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 82 of 100 (682244)
11-30-2012 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by New Cat's Eye
11-30-2012 10:02 AM


Well, I'm neither an uppity know it all brit nor a liberal communist hellbound degenerate.
That's a fair point. Carry on...
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-30-2012 10:02 AM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 83 of 100 (682528)
12-03-2012 12:44 PM


Starbucks to "review" UK tax arrangements
The Amazon, Google, Starbucks tax debacle rumbles on.
But it seems as a result of public pressure Starbucks is now going to "review" it's UK tax arrangements.
quote:
On Saturday night, Starbucks announced that it is reviewing its tax approach to Britain with a view to paying more following widespread criticism of the coffee chain's tax regime.
quote:
Troy Alstead, Starbucks' global chief financial officer, claimed that the firm has lost money in the 15 years it has been operating in the UK except in 2006.
The world's biggest coffee chain paid 8.6m in total UK tax over 13 years during which it recorded sales of 3.1bn.
Alstead's claim was "difficult to believe" when contrasted with boasts of success sent to shareholders, according to the report.
Starbucks has been able to cut its tax bill, MPs said, by paying fees to other parts of its global business, such as royalty payments for use of the brand.
Link

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Panda, posted 12-03-2012 1:06 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3733 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
Message 84 of 100 (682530)
12-03-2012 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Straggler
12-03-2012 12:44 PM


Re: Starbucks to "review" UK tax arrangements
Straggler writes:
quote:
Troy Alstead, Starbucks' global chief financial officer, claimed that the firm has lost money in the 15 years it has been operating in the UK except in 2006.
But despite their abject failure to run a profitable company, Starbucks has continued to supply the coffee drinkers of the UK.
It is only by the goodness of their hearts that they remain in the UK, selling coffee.
Oh ... wait.

"There is no great invention, from fire to flying, which has not been hailed as an insult to some god." J. B. S. Haldane

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Straggler, posted 12-03-2012 12:44 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2012 1:19 PM Panda has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 85 of 100 (682532)
12-03-2012 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by Panda
12-03-2012 1:06 PM


Re: Starbucks to "review" UK tax arrangements
They're in a right old two 'n eight........
Nice little blog over at Political Scrapbook
Historic claims made by Starbucks executives in little-scrutinised briefings to analysts and shareholders laid the way for the company to be slammed in a report by MPs today. The multinational is accused by the Public Accounts Committee of conniving to avoid corporation tax by pretending to be unprofitable in the UK — ‘exporting’ the real profits to jurisdictions with lower tax rates:
Starbucks told us that it has made a loss for 14 of the 15 years it has been operating in the UK, but in 2006 it made a small profit.
Starbucks claimed to the committee that it has been difficult for us to make a profit in the UK. Indeed, 2007 was ninth year in ten that the company filed losses in the UK. Strange, then, given that annual reports singled out the UK as one of the company’s cash cows:
In particular, our Canada, Japan, UK, and China MBUs account for a significant portion of the net revenue and earnings Annual Report 2011
Revenues from countries other than the US consist primarily of revenues from Canada and the UK, which together account for approximately 66% of net revenues Annual report 2009
But it was phonecall briefings to analysts from this period in which Starbucks really screwed themselves over:
On the release of quarterly earnings figures in 2007, then Chief Operating Officer Martin Coles told analysts that the profits from the UK were being used to pay for expansion in foreign markets
CEO Howard Schultz claimed that Starbucks’ UK arm was so successful that he would adapt lessons learned here for the American market
Again in 2007, then-Chief Financial Officer Peter Bocian claimed Starbucks UK had pulled in profits margins of nearly 15 percent almost 50m
Despite that impressive roster of duplicitous statements, it would take something to top claims made in respect of 2011, where Starbucks’ accounts department would have us believe the UK business made losses of 33m. At the time, executive John Culver told investors:
We are very pleased with the performance in the UK.
But CFO Troy Alstead told the select committee:
We are not at all pleased about our financial performance [in the UK].

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Panda, posted 12-03-2012 1:06 PM Panda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2012 6:35 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 86 of 100 (682609)
12-04-2012 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Tangle
12-03-2012 1:19 PM


Re: Starbucks to "review" UK tax arrangements
Now Starbucks are under fire for their employment practices...
quote:
Starbucks is cutting paid lunch breaks, sick leave and maternity benefits for thousands of British workers, sparking fresh anger over its business practices.
On the day the House of Commons' public accounts committee branded the US coffee chain's tax avoidance practices "immoral", baristas arriving for work were told to sign revised employment terms, which include the removal of paid 30-minute lunch breaks and paid sick leave for the first day of illness. Some will also see pay increases frozen.
The changes affecting about 7,000 coffee shop staff emerged as the company tried to quell public and political outrage at its use of secretive company structures that has seen it pay just 8.6m in UK tax over the past 13 years on sales of 3.1bn.
Is there a point at which public anger against a corporation can actually causes a change of corporate behaviour?
Is there any precedent for such a thing? If so are Starbucks potentially heading for some sort of backlash?
Or is 'consumer power' a much hyped but ultimately overly-dispersed and thus ineffectual method of changing anything much at all?
I don't know.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Tangle, posted 12-03-2012 1:19 PM Tangle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by petrophysics1, posted 12-05-2012 2:50 PM Straggler has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 100 (682818)
12-05-2012 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Straggler
12-04-2012 6:35 AM


Let's up the cost of Starbucks to 2.30
Straggler,
Since it hasn't been asked by any of the septics or others here, why did you title this "Corporate Tax Evasion" when in 6 pages you have provided no evidence of evasion?
I do support an increased tax on Starbucks the end result will be the cost will be maybe 2.30 instead of the about 2.10 it is now.
Will Starbucks pay this? Well actually you will pay it along with all the other Starbucks drinkers, corporations pass taxes along in the cost of their product.
I wish you luck. If you are successful you and the British government can show the populace you have forced Starbucks to be socially responsible at "no increased cost to the citizens".
In no way do I think you are being played for a fool by your government, which happens to be interested in increasing your tax on premade coffee drinks. It's all about getting an evil company to pay its fair share.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Straggler, posted 12-04-2012 6:35 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2012 6:36 PM petrophysics1 has replied
 Message 90 by Straggler, posted 12-06-2012 12:08 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9504
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.7


(3)
Message 88 of 100 (682877)
12-05-2012 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by petrophysics1
12-05-2012 2:50 PM


Re: Let's up the cost of Starbucks to 2.30
If Starbucks thought it could charge 2.30 instead of 2.10, it would do it today - tax or not.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by petrophysics1, posted 12-05-2012 2:50 PM petrophysics1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by petrophysics1, posted 12-05-2012 8:11 PM Tangle has replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 100 (682894)
12-05-2012 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Tangle
12-05-2012 6:36 PM


Re: Let's up the cost of Starbucks to 2.30
Tangle writes:
If Starbucks thought it could charge 2.30 instead of 2.10, it would do it today - tax or not.
Ok, so Starbucks doesn't think it can charge 2.30 without losing business and more importantly without making less money.
Charge more sell less, charge less sell more. Somewhere there is a price which brings in the maximum amount of money. I am quite confident that Starbucks has looked at that and came up with a price arround 2.10.
Now if you increase Starbucks cost of doing business they will make less money, less return on investment. If they can raise the price and do the same volumne they will do that. That is highly unlikely as if that were so the price would be higher right now.
So depending on how much the tax is, you put Starbucks into the position where its return on investment drops. If that drops enough they will stop investing in the UK and go where the return is better or the tax ciould make them lose money in which case they would just close up, and you lose the jobs and taxes paid by their employees and you lose the property taxes on their outlets.
They charge about $3.45 in the US and I think you have to be a complete idiot to pay that for a cup of shitty coffee. (I've always used Starbucks as an example that you could sell literal shit to the American public and they would buy it because no one knows how to say "the emperor has no clothes".)
When I was working as an exploration geologist for Phillips Petroleum they made a discovery off the coast of Northern Ireland. The well would produce 3800 bbls of oil a day. That's a good well even with the cost of offshore drilling. Phillips plugged and abandoned it because it wasn't big enough to get any reasonable rate of return on your investment because of the tax rates.
Good for you guys, it's not like unemployment is high in N. Ireland and better to send your money to OPEC.
Edited by petrophysics1, : typos
Edited by petrophysics1, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Tangle, posted 12-05-2012 6:36 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Tangle, posted 12-06-2012 4:31 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 90 of 100 (682931)
12-06-2012 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by petrophysics1
12-05-2012 2:50 PM


Re: Let's up the cost of Starbucks to 2.30
Petro writes:
Since it hasn't been asked by any of the septics or others here, why did you title this "Corporate Tax Evasion" when in 6 pages you have provided no evidence of evasion?
Because in every sense except the strict letter of the law it obviously is evasion. The fact that Starbucks has "reviewed" it's UK tax arrangements and found them wanting would seem to confirm this would it not?
Petro writes:
I do support an increased tax on Starbucks the end result will be the cost will be maybe 2.30 instead of the about 2.10 it is now.
What is stopping them charging 2.30 at the moment? Their social conscience.....?
Petro writes:
Well actually you will pay it along with all the other Starbucks drinkers, corporations pass taxes along in the cost of their product.
If Starbucks in the UK is as unprofitable as it originally claimed maybe it would be best to put it out of it's misery and let a more competent profit-making coffee provider have a go instead?
Petro writes:
I wish you luck. If you are successful you and the British government can show the populace you have forced Starbucks to be socially responsible at "no increased cost to the citizens".
Are you suggesting that Adam Smiths invisible hand alone cannot be relied upon to produce "socially responsible" corporations? Shame on you!!!!
Petro writes:
In no way do I think you are being played for a fool by your government, which happens to be interested in increasing your tax on premade coffee drinks.
I am under no delusion that the present UK government has my best interests at heart.
Petro writes:
It's all about getting an evil company to pay its fair share.
Corporations will almost invariably use their power to exploit the markets they operate in to their maximum profit advantage. Amongst other things this means they will pay as little tax as they can get away with and pay their workforce as little as they can get away with.
For reasons that should be obvious what is best for the corporation is therefore not necessarily what is best for the society/nation in which it operates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by petrophysics1, posted 12-05-2012 2:50 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024