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Author Topic:   Could RNA start life?
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 76 of 105 (724929)
04-22-2014 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Ed67
04-20-2014 9:36 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Good point. But when the search for natural causes gets to the origin of life, it stalls out.

If we abandonded research that stalled out in the past, we would still be banging rocks together.

There has been no naturalistic answer in the half century since discovering the structure of DNA. The reason is that, at the level of the cell, virtually all of the molecular systems exhibit irreducible complexity, and the code embedded in the DNA sequence is something that can not yet be explained without positing an intelligent designer.

Sorry, but a God of the Gaps is the most horrid argument I have ever seen. If there is a God, he has to be insulted by it.

We tried for hundreds of years to produce machines that flew. We couldn't do it. Did that mean that fairies kept birds aloft? This is the type of logic you are using.

For the Biological research establishment to admit that, scientifically speaking, there is room in the origin of life for an intelligent designer, would require an admirable example of scientific self-criticism.

No one is trying to exclude an intelligent designer. There just happens to be no evidence for one, and even those who claim that there is a designer fail to do any research to test the idea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Ed67, posted 04-20-2014 9:36 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 9:06 AM Taq has responded
 Message 79 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 9:20 AM Taq has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 77 of 105 (724959)
04-23-2014 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taq
04-22-2014 5:19 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Taq writes:

...even those who claim that there is a designer fail to do any research to test the idea.

You don't have to "claim that there is a designer" to do research on the idea. The current research establishment is free to do real research based on Design Theory, it just chooses not to.

The Discovery Institute, on the other hand, has a small lab up and running, which took decades to do (as is the norm) and will probably take decades to grow to the point of having enough researchers to 'dig in' to the subject.
It's just the pace of science. It'll come. With the full resistance of the current establishment, ID has come a long way scientifically.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 04-22-2014 5:19 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:35 AM Ed67 has not yet responded
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 78 of 105 (724960)
04-23-2014 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by onifre
04-19-2014 10:24 AM


Oni writes:

So all your work is ahead of you. Good luck.

Thanks. Peace out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by onifre, posted 04-19-2014 10:24 AM onifre has not yet responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 79 of 105 (724962)
04-23-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Taq
04-22-2014 5:19 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Taq writes:

Sorry, but a God of the Gaps is the most horrid argument I have ever seen.

Argument from personal opinion.
Taq writes:

If there is a God, he has to be insulted by it.

Religious argument (it's always the atheists who bring up the religious arguments, and they're the first to accuse ID of being religiously motivated! lol).
Taq writes:

If we abandonded research that stalled out in the past, we would still be banging rocks together...We tried for hundreds of years to produce machines that flew...

Confessions of personal FAITH in the current research program.

Still no responses to my arguments

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Taq, posted 04-22-2014 5:19 PM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Theodoric, posted 04-23-2014 9:59 AM Ed67 has not yet responded
 Message 82 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:37 AM Ed67 has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5765
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 80 of 105 (724969)
04-23-2014 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Ed67
04-23-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Still no responses to my arguments

Because you have no arguments. You have assertions and fallacies.

God of the gaps and godidit are not arguments. Neither is personal incredulity.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 9:20 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


(1)
Message 81 of 105 (724999)
04-23-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Ed67
04-23-2014 9:06 AM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
You don't have to "claim that there is a designer" to do research on the idea. The current research establishment is free to do real research based on Design Theory, it just chooses not to.

What types of research are they not doing? What experiments would they run?

The Discovery Institute, on the other hand, has a small lab up and running, which took decades to do (as is the norm) and will probably take decades to grow to the point of having enough researchers to 'dig in' to the subject.

Two years ago, I set up a lab in 2 months. It doesn't take decades. All it takes is money, and the Discovery Institute is swimming in it.

Don't you find it interesting that you look down on scientists that are doing research on abiogenesis, and yet you exalt scientists who propose intelligent design when they aren't doing any scientific research on the idea?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 9:06 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6461
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 82 of 105 (725000)
04-23-2014 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Ed67
04-23-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Argument from personal opinion.

"Scientists don't know how life could originate through abiotic processes, therefore God must have done it."

That is your argument. It is a God of the Gaps fallacy. It is an argument from ignorance.

Confessions of personal FAITH in the current research program.

Now you consider the very act of doing research as having faith. How pathetic.

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 9:20 AM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:20 PM Taq has responded

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 364 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 83 of 105 (725063)
04-23-2014 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Ed67
04-23-2014 9:06 AM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
The current research establishment is free to do real research based on Design Theory, it just chooses not to.

Why do you think that is though?

With the full resistance of the current establishment, ID has come a long way scientifically.

Why do you think there is resistance from the "current establishment"...?

- Oni


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Ed67, posted 04-23-2014 9:06 AM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:10 PM onifre has responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 84 of 105 (725140)
04-24-2014 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by onifre
04-23-2014 7:53 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
The reason for the resistance from the scientific establishment, and that it hasn't done science from a design perspective, is its commitment to methodological materialism.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by onifre, posted 04-23-2014 7:53 PM onifre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-24-2014 2:00 PM Ed67 has not yet responded
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 9:00 AM Ed67 has not yet responded
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Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 85 of 105 (725141)
04-24-2014 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
04-22-2014 11:59 AM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
ringo writes:


Ed67 writes:

Is it possible that intelligence can exist without a living physical body to sustain it?


There's your problem: If not, the "Intelligent Designer" would have to be an alien lifeform and not some "god". Then who/what designed it?

And if so?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 04-22-2014 11:59 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 04-24-2014 1:20 PM Ed67 has responded

    
Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 86 of 105 (725142)
04-24-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Taq
04-23-2014 11:37 AM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Taq writes:

Now you consider the very act of doing research as having faith. How pathetic.


So, do you consider the discovery of a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life inevitable?

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Taq, posted 04-23-2014 11:37 AM Taq has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Taq, posted 04-25-2014 11:41 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 87 of 105 (725143)
04-24-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Ed67
04-24-2014 1:17 PM


Re: Back to the Main Topic (sort of)
Ed67 writes:

Is it possible that intelligence can exist without a living physical body to sustain it?

If so, how would you know? If an intelligence existed separate from physical life, how would you detect it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:17 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:32 PM ringo has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 88 of 105 (725145)
04-24-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
04-24-2014 1:20 PM


Detection of a supernatural designer?
ringo writes:

If so, how would you know? If an intelligence existed separate from physical life, how would you detect it?

By the artifacts it left on the earth.

By the way, ringo, I respect you for asking the question.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ringo, posted 04-24-2014 1:20 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13026
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 89 of 105 (725146)
04-24-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Ed67
04-24-2014 1:32 PM


Re: Detection of a supernatural designer?
Ed67 writes:

By the artifacts it left on the earth.


You can detect artifacts but how do you connect them to some undetectable non-physical entity?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:32 PM Ed67 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Ed67, posted 04-24-2014 1:41 PM ringo has responded

  
Ed67
Member (Idle past 743 days)
Posts: 159
Joined: 04-14-2014


Message 90 of 105 (725148)
04-24-2014 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by ringo
04-24-2014 1:35 PM


Re: Detection of a supernatural designer?
ringo writes:


You can detect artifacts but how do you connect them to some undetectable non-physical entity?


Those were the only kind of intelligent entities around at the time, apparently, because we now have a full overview of how the replication system and cell operate. My personal opinion is that there is too much design expressed in living things, let alone humans, to be ignored or explained away.

Think about it:
All this design was somehow inserted into the first living thing.
Every single detail that is required to support life as an organism was encoded in base-4 on the DNA molecule. To suppose that this code came about WITHOUT intelligent design by someone who was 'alive' to create the code which started life on earth...

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.

Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by ringo, posted 04-24-2014 1:35 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 04-24-2014 1:53 PM Ed67 has responded
 Message 97 by RAZD, posted 04-25-2014 9:46 AM Ed67 has not yet responded

    
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