Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 121 (8781 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-19-2017 6:21 PM
357 online now:
frako, herebedragons, JonF, Minnemooseus (Adminnemooseus), RAZD (5 members, 352 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,497 Year: 21,103/21,208 Month: 1,536/2,326 Week: 872/345 Day: 110/124 Hour: 1/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev123456
7
Author Topic:   Heat release from tectonic friction
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1317 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 91 of 102 (685659)
12-24-2012 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by TrueCreation
12-21-2012 5:00 PM


Re: Back of envelope calculation

1) Well, convincing someone of a certain truth is not my concern if they do not value scientific method.

2) I might go so far as to say that if one does not value scientific epistemology, they deserve to believe lies.

1) Nor is "convincing someone of a certain truth is not my concern if they do not value reading comprehension when telling others what Genesis says."

But I am concerned as a member of society about what people believe when groups form that promote and disseminate erroneous falsehoods.
I believe that Truth is the light into the real world which we can only ignore at our own jeopardy as a nation.

2) They deserve to wallow in their ignorance, but we do not deserve to live in th Poliically Correct culture that they create and use to quiet us.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by TrueCreation, posted 12-21-2012 5:00 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded

    
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 157 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 92 of 102 (687668)
01-15-2013 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by TrueCreation
12-21-2012 5:00 PM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
TrueCreation, I don't know the science behind it, but am not fully convinced about the whole heat creation argument. It all depends on HOW two plates collide. If the one simply sinks below the other, the heat creation is a lot less than if one collides into another as in mountain building processes. I am not mathematical, I could never work out the amount of heat generated for the formation of the main mountain ranges, but surely the heat generated would be limited to the formation of existing mountain ranges? ie what effect would the heat generated in the creation of the Himalayas over say 800 years have on the earth?

Two plates sliding over one another as per the Japanese quake, 50 m of ocean floor lost in one day, had no significant heat effects.
Same as the splitting of the Afar rift in 2005, in some areas it split by 30M wide, with no descernible heat effects. So the observed reality as opposed to the theory, is that its possible to have continuous continental drift of many meters in one day, without any significant effects, both in subduction and spreading zones.

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by TrueCreation, posted 12-21-2012 5:00 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 01-16-2013 3:42 AM mindspawn has responded
 Message 100 by herebedragons, posted 01-18-2013 6:28 PM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3943
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 93 of 102 (687733)
01-16-2013 3:42 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 9:21 AM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
If you are not going to do the heat calculations how can you say the Japanese had no apprecialable effect?

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 9:21 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 9:06 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 157 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 94 of 102 (687737)
01-16-2013 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Larni
01-16-2013 3:42 AM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
It seems there have not been much studies on the actual temperatures at subduction zones, so all the maths is just speculation. Just through deductive reasoning its pretty clear that if you move two plates past each other there is less friction than if you collide or grind them roughly into each other. So speculate all you want on the maths, if two plates slide smoothly over one another, this has less effect than if two plates collide, and the effect is as yet unquantified. Guesswork.

http://news.ucsc.edu/2012/09/moore-grant.html
Brodsky, a professor of Earth and planetary sciences, helped organize the Japan Trench Fast Drilling Project (JFAST), which successfully drilled across the Tohoku earthquake fault earlier this year and installed a temperature observatory on the fault. The observatory allows scientists for the first time to measure the frictional heat produced by the fault slip of a great subduction-zone earthquake.

Earthquakes occur as giant plates in the Earth's crust grind past each other. Tectonic forces push the plates forward, while friction on the faults between plates holds them back. According to Brodsky, the lack of measurements of the frictional force during the sliding motion of an earthquake is one of the major impediments to progress in earthquake science.

"Observing and analyzing the temperature on the fault following the recent magnitude 9 Tohoku earthquake provides a unique and probably never-again achievable window into this critical value," Brodsky said. "What we learn will inform and prepare us for the next earthquakes, including the one predicted for the Cascadian subduction zone that lies along the coast of Oregon and Washington."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Larni, posted 01-16-2013 3:42 AM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by RAZD, posted 01-16-2013 4:16 PM mindspawn has not yet responded
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 4:56 PM mindspawn has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18858
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 95 of 102 (687798)
01-16-2013 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 9:06 AM


Applied Boy Scout Techniques
... Just through deductive reasoning its pretty clear that if you move two plates past each other there is less friction than if you collide or grind them roughly into each other. ...

Yes, it is so much more effective to butt two sticks together than to rub them to start a fire.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 9:06 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 96 of 102 (687803)
01-16-2013 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 9:06 AM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
Just through deductive reasoning its pretty clear that if you move two plates past each other there is less friction than if you collide or grind them roughly into each other. So speculate all you want on the maths, if two plates slide smoothly over one another, this has less effect than if two plates collide, and the effect is as yet unquantified.

You aren't describing the problem set up here. At least not as I understand it.

Basically, the issue here is that if the world is only 6000 years old, then the plates must originally have been moving really fast to get into their current position. Currently the plates are observed to be moving far more slowly. That loss of kinetic energy is from friction. We can say something about the magnitude of the energy involved and about the time involved. We don't have to speculate about what happens when the plates slide smoothly over each other because that would not produce slowing.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 9:06 AM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 5:07 PM NoNukes has responded

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 157 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 97 of 102 (687804)
01-16-2013 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by NoNukes
01-16-2013 4:56 PM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
You aren't describing the problem set up here. At least not as I understand it.

Basically, the issue here is that if the world is only 6000 years old, then the plates must originally have been moving really fast to get into their current position. Currently the plates are observed to be moving far more slowly. That loss of kinetic energy is from friction. We can say something about the magnitude of the energy involved and about the time involved. We don't have to speculate about what happens when the plates slide smoothly over each other because that would not produce slowing.

Thanks for explaining that. I believe the slowdown is more related to less mantle instability than kinetic forces (and friction) in the crust itself. But whether the heat under discussion relates to the original kinetic forces and friction, or the friction related to the slowdown of the tectonic activity, the same logic applies, they are still trying to measure tectonic related temperature changes.

Edited by mindspawn, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by NoNukes, posted 01-16-2013 4:56 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2013 12:13 PM mindspawn has responded

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 102 (687878)
01-17-2013 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by mindspawn
01-16-2013 5:07 PM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
I believe the slowdown is more related to less mantle instability than kinetic forces

I don't know what your sentence means? In order for big plates to stop moving, you cannot simply stop applying a moving force. You actually have to apply some kind of braking force. Or at least that's what Newton and I thought.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal and hasten the resurrection of the dead. William Lloyd Garrison.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mindspawn, posted 01-16-2013 5:07 PM mindspawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by mindspawn, posted 01-17-2013 12:56 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
mindspawn
Member (Idle past 157 days)
Posts: 1015
Joined: 10-22-2012


Message 99 of 102 (687884)
01-17-2013 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by NoNukes
01-17-2013 12:13 PM


Re: Back of envelope calculation
Makes sense, I have to admit there would be significant friction for the slowdown. Let's see what the Japan studies reveal.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by NoNukes, posted 01-17-2013 12:13 PM NoNukes has acknowledged this reply

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1353
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(2)
Message 100 of 102 (688056)
01-18-2013 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by mindspawn
01-15-2013 9:21 AM


You have missed some important points
Hi mindspawn

TrueCreation, I don't know the science behind it, but am not fully convinced about the whole heat creation argument. It all depends on HOW two plates collide. If the one simply sinks below the other, the heat creation is a lot less than if one collides into another as in mountain building processes. I am not mathematical, I could never work out the amount of heat generated for the formation of the main mountain ranges, but surely the heat generated would be limited to the formation of existing mountain ranges? ie what effect would the heat generated in the creation of the Himalayas over say 800 years have on the earth?
Two plates sliding over one another as per the Japanese quake, 50 m of ocean floor lost in one day, had no significant heat effects.

Same as the splitting of the Afar rift in 2005, in some areas it split by 30M wide, with no descernible heat effects. So the observed reality as opposed to the theory, is that its possible to have continuous continental drift of many meters in one day, without any significant effects, both in subduction and spreading zones.

I think you may have missed some important points on this topic. Maybe you haven't read the whole thread.

Based on the seismic activity of the San Andreas Fault, I did some calculations on what the seismic activity would be if the plates traveled from a single land mass to their present locations in only 6,000 years. see Message 9

I estimated that at that rate iit would produce an average of 3 magnitude 6 or greater earthquakes per hour for every 1000 miles of fault plus more than 1000 lesser earthquakes. This amount of seismic activity would not have gone unnoticed during the last 4000+ years of written history. Not to mention it would not be too friendly to life.

The other major problem is the heat produced when the sea floor spreads and fills with magma, which would be cooled by the oceans. True Creation calculated the heat generated from this process in Message 25 and estimated that it would be enough to heat the ocean to 14300K - which could boil an ocean 140 times more massive than the earth's.

These two points alone make discussion about the heat generated by friction superfluous. However, my calculations of the heat generated by friction are in Message 10 and estimate that friction would only account for an increase in temp of 1K. Friction alone plays very little role in the model, IMO. However , the bottom line is the continental plates would have moved 29,000 times faster than they are thought to have according to the standard model (175,000,000 years according to standard models divided by 6,000 years for a YEC model)

But considering the seismic activity and sea floor cooling alone, I say that YEC models are faced with 3 basic choices

1) Appeal to magic to disperse the heat

2) Abandon plate tectonics all together and explain biogeography and other geologic phenomenon with different models.

3) Recognize that the earth is indeed much older than 6,000 years.

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by mindspawn, posted 01-15-2013 9:21 AM mindspawn has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-19-2013 1:30 AM herebedragons has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15948
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.0


(1)
Message 101 of 102 (688098)
01-19-2013 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by herebedragons
01-18-2013 6:28 PM


Re: You have missed some important points
However, my calculations of the heat generated by friction are in Message 10 and estimate that friction would only account for an increase in temp of 1K.

I think you're missing something, I don't know how significant it is.

The thing is that as you note the plates would have to have been moving much faster than they are today, i.e. they had more kinetic energy than they do today. All that kinetic energy must have been converted into heat via friction to slow them down to their present speed. What would that do? I'm too tired to think about that right now, I'm going to watch TV instead.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by herebedragons, posted 01-18-2013 6:28 PM herebedragons has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by herebedragons, posted 01-19-2013 8:46 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
herebedragons
Member
Posts: 1353
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 102 of 102 (688118)
01-19-2013 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Dr Adequate
01-19-2013 1:30 AM


Re: You have missed some important points
I think you're missing something,

I probably am. I was surprised at how low the number was, but the lithosphere is enormous and requires a tremendous amount of heat to raise it 1K ( 5.6 x 10^24 J)

The thing is that as you note the plates would have to have been moving much faster than they are today, i.e. they had more kinetic energy than they do today. All that kinetic energy must have been converted into heat via friction to slow them down to their present speed. What would that do?

I based my calculations on published values for energy release during an earthquake then extrapolated it. One thing I see I did wrong was I only accounted for major earthquakes not all the lesser ones that would be accompanying them. That may double or triple the energy released.

I'm too tired to think about that right now, I'm going to watch TV instead.

Well, after you get some rest, see if you can come up with a better estimate. If you could improve any of the other estimates, that would be great too.

Oh, and another thing, the plates move by convection currents in the mantle which is caused by a temperature differential. I also understand that much of the heat generated by the core is from radioactive decay. So I was thinking, this is a YEC favorite - that radioactive decay was more rapid in the past which could be used to explain how there was more convection currents in the mantle and thus faster plate movement. My question is how much temperature differential would there need to be to produce convection currents that could push the plates at the needed rate?

I don't know how significant it is.

Well considering that the plates would have to move at 29,000 times the current rate, all the individual calculations are just decoration

HBD


Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca

"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Dr Adequate, posted 01-19-2013 1:30 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Prev123456
7
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017