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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again

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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2971 of 5179 (745123)
12-19-2014 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 2970 by herebedragons
12-19-2014 12:28 AM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
Well you had to put "biblical" in quotes for the "case" for slavery, for good reason. That's not a BIBLICAL case, that's a phony biblical case.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2970 by herebedragons, posted 12-19-2014 12:28 AM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2972 by herebedragons, posted 12-19-2014 12:36 AM Faith has not replied

herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(1)
Message 2972 of 5179 (745124)
12-19-2014 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2971 by Faith
12-19-2014 12:30 AM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
That's ALL you could respond to
You don't even know what "Biblical" case these "preachers" have to support their "position" of going to war against "tyranny." It's Biblical because you agree with it, that's all. Good grief.

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2973 of 5179 (745129)
12-19-2014 1:56 AM
Reply to: Message 2970 by herebedragons
12-19-2014 12:28 AM


Biblical foundations for Rev War, self defense
I'm a fan of Chris Pinto and maybe you're not but he's done quite a few radio shows recently on the biblical foundations for self defense, the Revolutionary War and so on. I haven't heard them all and I'm not sure I could muster my memory of what I did hear right now. Don't take this as a cop out because I will try to answer it if I can, but here's one titled Sacred Scripture, Sacred War about a book by that title he's reviewing. He did two programs on this. which you can probably find HERE I think the book makes the biblical case I was referring to but my mind is shot at the moment and I'll have to try to get back to it.
You say it seems like a matter of odds, OK, that there is no way having guns everywhere is going to guarantee that any one gun owner will ever be able to do any good with theirs. OK But I don't think that's how it really works. I think if guns are not restricted there should be a psychological effect of the knowledge that they could be on anyone anywhere that changes the whole situation in favor of less violence, fewer attempts at murder, that sort of thing. As long as it is known that guns are not allowed somewhere, that location becomes a target for criminals. So if you want some clearcut positive result from owning a gun that may never happen but the overall effect could be very positive. And there always IS that "off chance" that you would be exactly in that position where you could save somebody's life.
Now when you get into imagining people getting drunk and suspicious and so on that IS just your imagination. Perhaps a bar is one place where guns SHOULD be disallowed, but if a person is so hotheaded as to shoot someone who cuts him off in traffic or over anything that raises anger, how did such a hothead ever get the right to own a gun in the first place? Or fail to get enough training to deal with such things without resorting to murder. Surely we have to generally count on people to be sane enough not to kill someone over such things. We have to trust our fellow man to some extent or we're in worse shape than anybody imagines.
But this IS your imagination. How often do such impulsive murders happen? Murders usually result from long-term grievances. But I don't know, give us a statistic here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2970 by herebedragons, posted 12-19-2014 12:28 AM herebedragons has not replied

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 Message 2974 by NoNukes, posted 12-19-2014 3:29 AM Faith has not replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2974 of 5179 (745133)
12-19-2014 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 2973 by Faith
12-19-2014 1:56 AM


Re: Biblical foundations for Rev War, self defense
how did such a hothead ever get the right to own a gun in the first place?
Because there is no 'hothead' screening for purchasing a gun?
fail to get enough training to deal with such things without resorting to murder.
Really? There is some kind of mandatory anger management course that we all go through?
Murders usually result from long-term grievances.
You just made up that stat, didn't you?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2973 by Faith, posted 12-19-2014 1:56 AM Faith has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(4)
Message 2975 of 5179 (745140)
12-19-2014 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 2938 by Faith
12-18-2014 8:05 PM


Re: self defence
Faith writes:
Kids were more obedient in those days.
Yes, of course. The Donna Reed Show, Leave It to Beaver, My Three Sons, Ozzie and Harriet, they were all documentaries.
Right now, thanks to the gun-control fanatics, although it's perfectly legal it freaks people out and the cops don't know the law and hassle you and he doesn't want the hassle right now...If gun controlism is getting people nervous around legal safe gun possession then some positive publicity could help.
What raises concerns about guns is all the news reports about gun deaths.
Our Dad grew up in Canada. They all had guns, all kept in plain sight. There were wild animals, there were gophers in the fields, there were even wild Indians who occasionally broke into houses. Funny to think that even wild and woolly Canada has given up their guns. Now it's the wild criminals we need to be concerned about but now, alas, no guns to do anything about it.
For non-suicides, Canada has a gun death rate of 0.57 per 100,000, the US 3.23. For suicides Canada's rate is 1.6 and the US's 6.3. According to NationMaster (a statistics website), the violent crime murder rate for Canada is 16.23 per million people and the US 42.01.
Our guns do not make us safer. They make it more likely that we will die from some gun-related cause.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2938 by Faith, posted 12-18-2014 8:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2984 by Faith, posted 12-19-2014 3:16 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 2976 of 5179 (745142)
12-19-2014 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 2958 by Faith
12-18-2014 11:07 PM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
Faith writes:
More good guys being armed means LESS violence.
You're living in a fairy tale land. The more guns you put in a population the more often guns will be used.
Disarm the good guys and you increase the violence. That IS what has happened in the UK and Australia. Not specifically GUN violence but violence, crime, attacks on citizens.
What are you talking about? According to Wikipedia the UK has had strong gun control for decades and decades, so there was no recent "disarming of good guys" that could have had any effect on violent crime, plus violent crime in general is down over the past decade. And here's a graph of violent crime in Australia (from the Australia Institute of Criminology website), where strong gun control went into effect beginning in 1996 with implementation taking several years:
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2958 by Faith, posted 12-18-2014 11:07 PM Faith has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2977 of 5179 (745143)
12-19-2014 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 2940 by Faith
12-18-2014 8:40 PM


Re: Black Robed Regiment: the preachers of the Revolutionary War
I'm sure you've heard of the Black Robe Regiment? That was the name given to the war-preaching pastors by Great Britain, who considered their influence to have been a major factor in their losing the war. How many had guns is not really the point.
Yes it is the point.
Some merely preached in favor of the war, but some did possess muskets.
So your whole idea that everyone was armed seems to be destroyed.
Instead of links to conspiracy websites maybe you should try real historians.
Teachinghistory.org
There is a lot of myth about Muhlenberg.
quote:
According to a biography written by his great nephew in the mid-19th century,.[2] on January 21, 1776 in the Lutheran church in Woodstock, Virginia, Reverend Muhlenberg took his sermon text from the third chapter Ecclesiastes, which starts with "To every thing there is a season..."; after reading the eighth verse, "a time of war, and a time of peace," he declared, "And this is the time of war," removing his clerical robe to reveal his Colonel's uniform. Outside the church door the drums began to roll as men turned to kiss their wives and then walked down the aisle to enlist, and within half an hour, 162 men were enrolled.[3] The next day he led out 300 men from the county to form the nucleus of the 8th Virginia Regiment. Though it is accepted that Muhlenberg helped form and lead the 8th, historians doubt the account of the sermon, as there are no reports prior to Muhlenberg's great-nephew's biography.
Peter Muhlenberg - Wikipedia
http://www-tc.pbs.org/...s/2011-05-13/505_muhlenbergrobe.pdf
THere is nothing prior to 1849 that corroborates the story of the sermon.
Nothing you posted here talks at all about gun ownership in the colonial/revolution era. Want to try again?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2940 by Faith, posted 12-18-2014 8:40 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2978 of 5179 (745144)
12-19-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2943 by Faith
12-18-2014 9:05 PM


Re: Used to be able to carry a gun in school
Years ago nobody thought twice about people having guns, it was normal.
When? Where?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2943 by Faith, posted 12-18-2014 9:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2986 by Faith, posted 12-19-2014 3:30 PM Theodoric has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2979 of 5179 (745147)
12-19-2014 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 2962 by Faith
12-18-2014 11:50 PM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
Faith writes:
How did guns make the Old West MORE violent? Says who?
I think any reasonable person would equate more deadly with more violent, and guns certainly render any situation more deadly. In fact, the gun lobby argument is that this precise quality, their violent deadly nature, discourages violence.
There really should not be an escalation of VIOLENCE by the mere possession of guns, there really should be a reduction in violence. I'm standing by that.
All the evidence says the more guns the more violence, especially deadly violence.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2962 by Faith, posted 12-18-2014 11:50 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2987 by Faith, posted 12-19-2014 3:32 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2980 of 5179 (745148)
12-19-2014 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 2963 by NoNukes
12-18-2014 11:50 PM


Re: Used to be able to carry a gun in school
NoNukes writes:
You are going to have to demonstrate this. I don't believe people routinely brought guns to schools even in the 1960s.
I can believe that there existed schools where a gun might be a not uncommon sight (according to this National Review article scholastic gun teams were not unusual), but in the northeast where I attended school in the 1960's a gun in the halls would have had people running for the exits, especially with the assassinations of John Kennedy, Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy fresh in our minds.
--Percy

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 Message 2963 by NoNukes, posted 12-18-2014 11:50 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2982 by Theodoric, posted 12-19-2014 9:55 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22394
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 2981 of 5179 (745149)
12-19-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2969 by Faith
12-19-2014 12:26 AM


Re: Let's keep the Islam out of this topic
NoNukes writes:
So you would support background checks that would be needed to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill? Would all mentally ill people be banned from having weapons? What about families with a mentally ill family member?
Faith writes:
Background checks, yes, all mentally ill don't know, whole family no.
Newtown was a case of a mentally ill person possessing guns. A gun in a household with a mentally ill family member is equally a danger. Mentally ill doesn't mean mentally stupid, and a mentally ill person would have little trouble surreptitiously gaining access to the guns in the household.
We take away people's rights with great reluctance in this country, and this reluctance is apparent in ruling someone mentally ill. Senseless murders are committed regularly by those with mental problems, either with an actual medical history of medical problems or with just friends and family noticing recent unusual or unpredictable behavior. One of the hopes of gun control is that we can find a way to effectively keep the mentally ill from possessing guns.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Fix misspeak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2969 by Faith, posted 12-19-2014 12:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2988 by Faith, posted 12-19-2014 3:37 PM Percy has replied
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 2982 of 5179 (745150)
12-19-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 2980 by Percy
12-19-2014 9:41 AM


Re: Used to be able to carry a gun in school
We had a gun range at school in NE Pennsylvania in the 1970's. It was strictly 22 caliber. Our rifles shot 22 shorts. There were no guns in the hallways. We sused school issued rifles that were locked up at the range.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2980 by Percy, posted 12-19-2014 9:41 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Astrophile
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 92
From: United Kingdom
Joined: 02-10-2014


(1)
Message 2983 of 5179 (745162)
12-19-2014 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2931 by Faith
12-18-2014 4:46 PM


Re: Where did I say I oppose laws regulating guns?
The gun control fanatics do all the wrong things and end up giving the criminals free rein. That's what taking guns away from the good guys has done in Australia and the UK, and even restricting where they can be carried as has been done here has had the same effect.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but I happen to be a life-long citizen of the UK, and I feel much safer for the fact that ownership of guns is strictly controlled here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2931 by Faith, posted 12-18-2014 4:46 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2984 of 5179 (745171)
12-19-2014 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 2975 by Percy
12-19-2014 8:09 AM


Re: self defence
For non-suicides, Canada has a gun death rate of 0.57 per 100,000, the US 3.23. For suicides Canada's rate is 1.6 and the US's 6.3. According to NationMaster (a statistics website), the violent crime murder rate for Canada is 16.23 per million people and the US 42.01.
Our guns do not make us safer. They make it more likely that we will die from some gun-related cause.
But here's the usual problem with such statistics. Canada does not have the demographic diversity of the US, and such statistics mix in rates for the high crime areas with those from other areas. There are areas where there is a high incidence of gun ownership and very low to zero crimes or gun deaths. That doesn't show in such a report. So you really can't conclude anything about safety or lack of it from such statistics.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2975 by Percy, posted 12-19-2014 8:09 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2990 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-19-2014 3:41 PM Faith has replied
 Message 3000 by Percy, posted 12-19-2014 4:25 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 2985 of 5179 (745172)
12-19-2014 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 2977 by Theodoric
12-19-2014 8:59 AM


Re: Black Robed Regiment: the preachers of the Revolutionary War
No it is not the point. Gun possession was not the point of my statement about the ministers who preached in favor of war and then joined in with it, the point was only to answer HBD's objection to Christians supporting gun rights. Some ministers did have guns, but his general complaint was about support for violence in general.
better quote me if you are going to accuse me of saying something I couldn't have said. Where did I say "everyone was armed?" I don't recall saying that at all. Those who fought in the war were of course armed, but I don't recall even mentioning that. The point was only and entirely to show that CHRISTIANS SUPPORTED THE REVOLUTIONAR WAR which certainly implies supporting the possession of guns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2977 by Theodoric, posted 12-19-2014 8:59 AM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 2989 by Tanypteryx, posted 12-19-2014 3:37 PM Faith has replied

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