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Author | Topic: Gun Control Again | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Faith writes:
That's not what you said. You said, "These mass killings are recent, began in the 90s with Columbine," but it's easy to find mass killings before the 90's. I just happened to mention only two. Mass killings have increased with the increasing prevalence of guns, and the increased ease of their acquisition.
What you say is never what you're talking about, is it. Anyway, if there's been any death of BIBLICAL Christian morality then it's been much greater in Europe, so why don't they have more mass killings?
Anecdotal data? From Ammoland? Well, I guess that's the best you can expect when someone thinks any information is trustworthy without further evidence. To believe what you do you must think America is the only nation in the world with psychotropic drugs. You need studies demonstrating people become more likely to commit murder when under the influence of psychotropic drugs. What we know is that the more guns, the more gun deaths. Eliminate the guns and you'll eliminate the deaths. --Percy
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
quote: Percy writes: In case no one on the anti-gun side has ever made this clear let me state that Trump is correct. Trump was 'sorta correct'. The community college was not a gun free zone. In fact, gun free public college zones are illegal in Oregon. The school can have a policy of not allowing guns on campus, but those rules cannot apply to students who have been issued a concealed carry permit. Those students can carry on campus, and the news reports indicated that there were people on campus doing concealed carry.
What goes unnoted by the gun nuts is that increasing the number of armed citizens by several times.... Given the laws in Oregon, we don't know the current number of guns that there are in the classroom. There may already be one or two guns per classroom. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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marc9000 Member Posts: 1522 From: Ky U.S. Joined: Member Rating: 1.3 |
Mass killings have increased with the increasing prevalence of guns, and the increased ease of their acquisition. I enter Bizarro World reluctantly and with trepidation, but I have a question. Mass killings have also increased with the increasing prevalence of atheism in the scientific community. This Oregon shooting, and the recent church shooting were hate crimes against Christians. Noble prize winner Steven Weinberg claimed that a significant accomplishment for the scientific community would be to "weaken the hold of religion". What better way to weaken the hold of religion in the U.S. than to kill Christians! No one in the news media seems to question what role a secular organization that sometimes opposes traditional Christian morals might have in crimes against Christian people. If there are more attacks on Christians in the coming months or years, do you think the scientific community should have it's activities more closely monitored by government?
What we know is that the more guns, the more gun deaths. Eliminate the guns and you'll eliminate the deaths. Eliminate the heroin, and you'll eliminate the heroin deaths? The more automobiles, the more automobile deaths. The more kitchen knives, the more kitchen knife deaths. The more baseball bats, the more baseball bat deaths. Back in Message 3728, I asked this question of you, and got no response from you, or anyone.
quote: All I got was a "straw man" accusation in the next message, I assume that is supposed to mean that gun control advocates claim to NOT be in favor of a total gun ban. Yet their rhetoric makes it clear that they are. It's one of many reasons gun control isn't more successful in the U.S. Do you have any proposals for how gun control could be more successful than heroin control? This entire thread is very low on specifics on just what control advocates want to do. It leads logical people to believe that they don't really know, they just trust the government, the Democrat party, to make those decisions. Obama's latest rants don't even contain specifics. He just wants you to trust him. Do you?
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Tanypteryx Member Posts: 4443 From: Oregon, USA Joined: Member Rating: 5.0 |
Do you think mass shootings are a bad thing?
Do you think mass shootings of Christians are a bad thing? Do you think mass shootings of non-Christians are a bad thing? Do you think mass shootings of atheists is a bad thing? Do you have any suggestions on how mass shootings can be stopped considering that there is the second amendment, hundreds of millions of guns and almost anyone can buy a gun and pretty much all of the politicians are either paid off by or afraid of the gun lobby? Anything? I realize that mass shootings are a small percentage of the gunshot deaths.Do you have any solution for those? And while I'm asking questions, should irresponsible hunters like Dick Cheney ever be allowed to own a gun or have a hunting license again?What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy
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Tangle Member Posts: 9510 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.8
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NoNukes writes: Given the laws in Oregon, we don't know the current number of guns that there are in the classroom. There may already be one or two guns per classroom. This highlights the problem; the idea that students - or teachers - could be legally carrying guns around in school is insane. It's hard to say how bizzarre this sounds to outsiders. It shows how anaesthetised Americans have become to the problem of gun culture. I've said this before but it's still relevant, in the UK we had a problem with gangs using knives. The government did one of those knee-jerk reactions and made it an imprisionable offence to be carry a knife with a blade longer than 4.5 inches in most circumstances. I'm doubtful it made much of a difference to knife crime - but what we didn't do was issue knives to everyone else in the expectation that that would solve the problem.Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
One mass killing in 1966 and one in 1913 is hardly a fair comparison to the spate of such killings since the 90s.
That's not what you said. You said, "These mass killings are recent, began in the 90s with Columbine," but it's easy to find mass killings before the 90's. I just happened to mention only two. I really can't fathom why you wouldn't know I wasn't saying there had never been any mass killings before the 90s. What we've been seeing since then is an increase to the point that it's every couple of years or so and we're almost getting to take it for granted. It's the numbers and the frequency that we're all aware of that anybody is talking about, not just the occasional berserkery years apart.
Mass killings have increased with the increasing prevalence of guns, and the increased ease of their acquisition. Makes a nice simple refrain I guess.
You say there has been no death of Christian morality. I'm talking of course about BIBLICAL Christian morality.
What you say is never what you're talking about, is it. It always is only I realize belatedly that you don't have the same definitions I have. And I would think you would know this too.
Anyway, if there's been any death of BIBLICAL Christian morality then it's been much greater in Europe, so why don't they have more mass killings? I wouldn't expect the exact same consequences from culture to culture myself. I gave two sources, not just Ammoland. Do you actually think they made up the drugs each of the killers was on, and made up the warning labels on the various drugs too? Ad hominems at EvC reach new heights of absurdity. We aren't going to eliminate the guns so it would be a good idea to think in terms of other ways to prevent the problem. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1420 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined:
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We aren't going to eliminate the guns so it would be a good idea to think in terms of other ways to prevent the problem. It's a moot point anyway, as humanist attorney and author David Niose points out in an article titled, Badass: The Culture that Makes Gun Reform Impossible. There's a huge problem with the availability of guns in our society. But the worse problem is that the USA has a paranoid gun culture that defines firearms in terms of manhood, security, and power instead of as dangerous items whose use deserves to be regulated in the same way as other such implements. Until after the Sandy Hook incident, I had no idea that there were so many people in America ---otherwise functioning adults--- who had to have a gun within arm's reach 24-7. That's a sickness.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
A few months grace period for everyone to turn their guns in, before arrests and imprisonment started? What percentage of gun owners would turn their gun in? I suspect it would be VERY low That is of course your suspicion. Why is anyone other than you responsible for defending or answering you based on your suspicion. Your suspicions are often wrong. For example, the Oregon shooter did not target Christians. While he did ask people about their faith, he simply told those who professed to be Christians that he planned to join them soon. He shot his vicitims regardless of who they were. Does not sound like the shooter was professing any atheist believes with. Quite the opposite. Nonreligious Questions
quote: Do you have any proposals for how gun control could be more successful than heroin control? This entire thread is very low on specifics on just what control advocates want to do. Perhaps that lack of specifics is because you are looking for a particular answer and many of the people posting don't agree with you. There have been plenty of specific proposals. For the most parts those proposals are not bans although there are people here who want complete bans. It is my opinion that the people who are holding out for a ban are just dreamers. They are unlikely to get their way. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
It shows how anaesthetised Americans have become to the problem of gun culture. Well, no. It does not quite show that. There are those of us who find the huge number of guns a problem and those of us who think we should all be carrying guns. But in the face of laws passed that allow the latter, the rest of us are stuck with our concerns.
but what we didn't do was issue knives to everyone else in the expectation that that would solve the problem. Yes, that would be insane. I knew it was only a matter of time before some politician suggested more guns to solve the problem. Most of us do know that such solutions are idiotic. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Are Americans more mentally ill than the Swiss or Canadians? Possibly. We are certainly under more stress due to high income inequality and low social comforts. They test out happier than Americans too. And guns are appealing as images of "leveling" tools (pun intended). Here's some food for thought:
quote: Details in article It would be interesting to break gun deaths down into Suicide, Domestic abuse and Other. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel☮American☆Zen☯Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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marc9000 writes: Mass killings have also increased with the increasing prevalence of atheism in the scientific community. Many fewer Americans are atheists than Europeans. Roughly 20% of Europeans are atheists, but less than 10% of Americans. If mass killings were correlated with atheism then there would be far more mass killings in Europe than in the US, yet the reverse is true.
What we know is that the more guns, the more gun deaths. Eliminate the guns and you'll eliminate the deaths. Eliminate the heroin, and you'll eliminate the heroin deaths? Well, yes, precisely. We know eliminating drugs is very difficult, because addiction is a powerful force. Are gun nuts addicted to their guns? Where addictive forces are involved banning isn't an effective approach, but I don't think it's a factor with guns. And I'm not arguing that banning guns is a practical approach. I'm just emphasizing something that should be self-evident and eminently obvious but somehow isn't to the gun nuts: guns are central to the problem of gun deaths. Gun deaths aren't caused by atheism or a decline in Christian morals or a scientific conspiracy or anything else like that. Each murderer has his own reasons, his own pathology. There's no pattern. No one knows who's going to snap or why they're going to snap or where they're going to snap, but when they do snap if there's a gun available then murders will happen. The gun death rate will decline when the availability of deadly guns declines.
The more automobiles, the more automobile deaths. Yes, absolutely. More precisely, the more automobile miles the more automobile deaths. The government reacted by mandating increasingly strict auto safety standards beginning around 1970 (in reaction to increasing deaths during the decade of the 1960's), and auto deaths per vehicle mile have dropped:
Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a similar graph for gun deaths? Of course, but instead gun deaths are increasing. Possibly gun deaths might pass auto deaths soon:
So how might we reverse that rising line for gun deaths? Ban guns? Sure, but the gun lobby says no. Stronger gun control? Sure, but the gun lobby says no. Stricter gun safety standards, analogous to auto safety standards? Sure, but the gun lobby says no. More studies on how to reduce gun deaths? Sure, but (incredibly and damningly for something as innocuous as efforts to increase our knowledge) the gun lobby says no. The gun lobby blocks all efforts to reduce gun deaths, and blames gun deaths on everything but guns. That's crazy. --Percy Edited by Percy, : Wordsmith first paragraph. Edited by Percy, : Fix minor grammar issue.
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Percy Member Posts: 22499 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 4.9 |
Faith writes: That's not what you said. You said, "These mass killings are recent, began in the 90s with Columbine," but it's easy to find mass killings before the 90's. I just happened to mention only two. I really can't fathom why you wouldn't know I wasn't saying there had never been any mass killings before the 90s. I didn't think you had said, "There had never been any mass killings before the 90s." I thought you said exactly what you said: "These mass killings are recent, began in the 90s with Columbine." You've been told many times over the years that you often don't say what you later claim you meant. You and Buzsaw (may he rest in glorious peace) were legendary for making misstatements followed by voluminous arguments that you really meant something else. Until you start having some "Doh! How could I have said that!" moments you're never going to correct this problem.
What we've been seeing since then is an increase to the point that it's every couple of years or so and we're almost getting to take it for granted. It's the numbers and the frequency that we're all aware of that anybody is talking about, not just the occasional berserkery years apart. Yes, agreed (mostly), but that's not what you originally said. Anyway, it's not "every couple of years of so." It's hundreds of incidents per year that 4 or more people are killed in the US. From Wikipedia: " As of September 8, the U.S. was averaging 1.05 mass shootings per day in 2015 (defined as incidents in which four or more people are shot)."
Mass killings have increased with the increasing prevalence of guns, and the increased ease of their acquisition. Makes a nice simple refrain I guess. Makes a nice evasion, I guess, of something that happens to be true. Gun deaths will rise and fall with rising and falling prevalence of guns, because it's guns that cause gun deaths.
Anyway, if there's been any death of BIBLICAL Christian morality then it's been much greater in Europe, so why don't they have more mass killings? I wouldn't expect the exact same consequences from culture to culture myself. In other words you're just making things up. You have no evidence for your claim of a link between BIBLICAL Christian morality and gun deaths, nor even any evidence of any link to anything in other more atheistic cultures such as Europe.
I gave two sources, not just Ammoland. Do you actually think they made up the drugs each of the killers was on, and made up the warning labels on the various drugs too? Ad hominems at EvC reach new heights of absurdity. There was no ad hominem. All you provided are lists of murderers who were taking some form of psychiatric medication. How many weren't? How many were people who'd gone off their meds? We don't know, because the one's who weren't taking medication aren't listed. What you need is what I already said you need: studies showing that these drugs make people more likely to murder. You've made a claim and have no evidence supporting it. It's actually a complex issue. Certainly the drug warnings indicate that some patients might become worse, but does that mean more likely to murder? A study might find that among people with a certain psychiatric condition under a certain medication, 5% become more likely to murder and 95% become less likely to murder, with the net result of less murders. Or it might find the opposite. Or it might be inconclusive. But you don't have a study. You have only woefully incomplete lists.
We aren't going to eliminate the guns so it would be a good idea to think in terms of other ways to prevent the problem. I don't think we're going to eliminate guns, either. I'm just making the point that it is the guns that are the cause of gun deaths, not something else. --Percy
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1471 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Utter nonsense. I've known a lot of gun owners and there isn't a shred of resemblance between them and that Hollywood-invented portrait of them. I would think if anyone really wanted to influence them to help deal with the problems of mass killings and other gun violence, including accidents due to irresponsibility, it would help to treat them as intelligent responsible human beings which the vast majority are. As long as this liberal smear campaign continues don't expect much help.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3990 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Faith writes: Utter nonsense. I've known a lot of gun owners and there isn't a shred of resemblance between them and that Hollywood-invented portrait of them. I would think if anyone really wanted to influence them to help deal with the problems of mass killings and other gun violence, including accidents due to irresponsibility, it would help to treat them as intelligent responsible human beings which the vast majority are. As long as this liberal smear campaign continues don't expect much help. You mean it is imperative that we counter the Hollywood myth that many gun owners are self-righteous narcissists who won't help solve the problem of mass-murdered elementary school kids as long as their "intelligent responsible" feelings are hurt? It hurt my feelings that women on campus saw every man as a potential threat during a particularly bad season of sexual assaults in the 80s, but I still agreed to help as a library-to-dorm escort when asked. I guess I could have refused, telling them that men don't rape women, penises rape women, but I couldn't achieve that level of responsible intelligence."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads." Homo sum, humani nihil a me alienum puto.-Terence
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ringo Member (Idle past 439 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Faith writes:
I find that love is easier after giving up Christianity.
Should be even easier once I get used to this love thing.
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