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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
LamarkNewAge
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Posts: 712
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4906 of 4987 (782157)
04-18-2016 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4615 by Straggler
01-06-2016 2:49 AM


Straggler wanted scientific studies link drugs to violence.
I said "My biggest objection to "gun control" is that it includes the issue of forcing children on psychotropic drugs." and Straggler responded "I assume you have data to back this claim up? International comparisons showing a link between gun control laws and the number of children on psychotic drugs in different nations, for example?"

There was a big study (of a million people over multiple years)showing massive increases in acts of violence in Sweden just released 6 months ago. The hypothesis was that SSRIs would be found to not increase acts of violence. Here is text from the introduction to the study results.

quote:

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are among the most widely prescribed psychiatric medications in many countries [16]. At the same time, concerns about their adverse effects, including suicide and violence, have been widely discussed and remain controversial
....
Despite a number of legal cases linking SSRIs and violent behaviour [16], empirical research on the association is limited and inconclusive. Ecological studies suggest that increased SSRI prescriptions have been associated with decreases in violent crimes in the US [17] and lethal violence in the Netherlands [18]. In contrast, an expert review of clinical trials concluded that there was an excess of violence in both adults and children on SSRIs compared with placebo [16]. Furthermore, drug safety (or pharmacovigilance) data have shown a disproportionate association between SSRIs and violent behaviours [19] and serious violent acts [20], and an observational study found an association of work-related violence with antidepressant purchases [21]
....
Our objective was thus to investigate the association between SSRIs and violence outcomes by linking data from Swedish national registers on individual SSRI prescriptions, use of other psychotropic drugs, and violent crimes in a large population-based cohort.
....
Our null hypothesis was that no associations between SSRI medication and violent outcomes would be demonstrated using a within-individual design, including in different age groups.

http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/...


The evidence was a very large increase in acts of violence.

Here is another scientific work that just came out.

quote:

Antidepressants can raise the risk of suicide, biggest ever review finds

By Sarah Knapton, Science Editor
27 January 2016 11:30am

Antidepressants can raise the risk of suicide, the biggest ever review has found, as pharmaceutical companies were accused of failing to report side-effects and even deaths linked to the drugs.

An analysis of 70 trials of the most common antidepressants - involving more than 18,000 people - found they doubled the risk of suicide and aggressive behaviour in under 18s.

Although a similarly stark link was not seen in adults, the authors said misreporting of trial data could have led to a serious under-estimation of the harms.

For years families have claimed that antidepressant medication drove their loved ones to commit suicide, but have been continually dismissed by medical companies and doctors who claimed a link was unproven.

The review - the biggest oif its kind into the effects of the drugs - was carried out by the Nordic Cochrane Centre and analysed by University College London (UCL) who today endorse the findings in an editorial in the British Medical Journal (BMJ).

After comparing clinical trial information to actual patient reports the scientists found pharmaceutical companies had regularly misclassified deaths and suicidal events in people taking anti-depressants to "favour their products".

Experts said the review's findings were "startling" and said it was "deeply worrying" that clinical trials appear to have been misreported.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-of-suicide-biggest-ever-revie


There is much more text in the article.

I did a (messed up) thread on a congresscritter who supports forcing kids on drugs. That is the godawful Timothy Murphy of Pennsylvania. The thread was a mess but here it is. It was a few weeks before this Telegraph article.

http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=19046

People were wondering if there was scientific fraud going on today (in a thread on objectivity started by Percy), so I got the idea for the thread on Timothy Murphy and SSRIs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4615 by Straggler, posted 01-06-2016 2:49 AM Straggler has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4907 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 7:07 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15560
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 4907 of 4987 (782163)
04-18-2016 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 4906 by LamarkNewAge
04-18-2016 6:02 PM


Re: Straggler wanted scientific studies link drugs to violence.
LamarkNewAge writes:

The evidence was a very large increase in acts of violence.

What the study (http://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/...) actually said about the youngest age group was this:

quote:
With age stratification, there was a significant association between SSRIs and violent crime convictions for individuals aged 15 to 24 y (HR = 1.43, 95% CI 1.191.73, p < 0.001, absolute risk = 3.0%).

A "very large increase" and a "significant association" are not the same thing. The statistical correlation doesn't translate naturally into some magnitude of increase, I'm not sure myself how to interpret it.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4906 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-18-2016 6:02 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4925 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2016 5:45 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 4927 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-24-2016 6:33 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5751
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


(1)
Message 4908 of 4987 (782333)
04-22-2016 10:39 AM


New study debunks NRA arguments
This new study debunks the whole "good guy with a gun" meme. Not surprisingly there seems to be no evidence to support the "good guy with a gun" myth. Guns are rarely used in self defense. Now before you ammosexuals make some claim of the deterrent effect, the study looks at that too.
quote:
The studys detailed findings include:

In 2013, there were only 211 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm. That same year, there were 7,838 criminal firearm homicides.

In 2013, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a firearm, guns were used in 37 criminal homicides. This ratio does not include the tens of thousands of lives taken in suicides or unintentional shootings.

Twenty states reported zero justifiable firearm homicides by civilians in 2013: Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Idaho, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Montana, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Utah, West Virginia, and Wyoming.

Intended victims of violent crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm in only 0.9 percent of attempted and completed incidents between 2012 and 2014.

Intended victims of property crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm in only 0.2 percent of attempted and completed incidents between 2012 and 2014.

A significant percentage of the persons killed in a firearm justifiable homicide were known to the shooter, not strangers. In 2013, 27 percent of persons killed in a firearm justifiable homicide were known to the shooter, 59.7 percent were strangers, and for 13.3 percent of persons the relationship was unknown.

The shooters in justifiable homicides are overwhelmingly male. In 2013, of the 211 firearm justifiable homicides, 93.8 percent were committed by men.

The 211 firearm justifiable homicides by private citizens in 2013 do not include shootings by law enforcement.



http://www.vpc.org/...gun-use-is-rare-new-vpc-study-confirms

Full study

Now anyone have any scientific studies showing this study is incorrect?

That is right, ammosexuals do not do or want scientific studies on gun violence.
http://www.msnbc.com/...-how-the-nra-suppressed-gun-violence

Science? We don't need no stinkin' science.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4909 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 11:18 AM Theodoric has responded
 Message 4915 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 12:57 PM Theodoric has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11236
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4909 of 4987 (782342)
04-22-2016 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 4908 by Theodoric
04-22-2016 10:39 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
quote:
Intended victims of violent crimes engaged in self-protective behavior with a firearm in only 0.9 percent of attempted and completed incidents between 2012 and 2014.

Are you going to tell those 163,600 people that they shouldn't have be allowed to defend themselves with a firearm?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4908 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2016 10:39 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4910 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 11:26 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded
 Message 4911 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2016 11:35 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 24396
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4910 of 4987 (782345)
04-22-2016 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4909 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2016 11:18 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
And there's always the question of how many such incidents get reported too. Reading a biography of Merle Haggard recently, ran across an account of how he was on stage performing and saw way at the back of the crowd, it was an outdoor arena of some sort, his friend Bonnie being accosted by a man. Haggard let the band do its thing, left the stage and confronted the man with a gun. I'm sure that was never reported.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4909 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 11:18 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4912 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2016 11:37 AM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 4914 by Blue Jay, posted 04-22-2016 12:49 PM Faith has responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5751
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4911 of 4987 (782349)
04-22-2016 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 4909 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2016 11:18 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
Are you going to address the study or just build more strawman arguments?

Are you going to ask the NRA to validate their claim that 2.5 million Americans use guns in self-defense against criminal attackers each year?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4909 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 11:18 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4913 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 11:39 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5751
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4912 of 4987 (782352)
04-22-2016 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 4910 by Faith
04-22-2016 11:26 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
We are talking evidence Faith not anecdotes. You have a way of coming in and shitting all over threads, please do not do that here.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4910 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 11:26 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11236
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4913 of 4987 (782353)
04-22-2016 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 4911 by Theodoric
04-22-2016 11:35 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
Are you going to address the study or just build more strawman arguments?

I am addressing the study: It shows that more people are defending themselves from violent crime with firearms than are being killed by them.

That's great news, firearms are actually helping make us safer.

Are you going to ask the NRA to validate their claim that 2.5 million Americans use guns in self-defense against criminal attackers each year?

No, fuck the NRA, I don't give a shit what they say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4911 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2016 11:35 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4916 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 12:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 77 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 4914 of 4987 (782362)
04-22-2016 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 4910 by Faith
04-22-2016 11:26 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
Hi Faith.

Faith writes:

Reading a biography of Merle Haggard recently, ran across an account of how he was on stage performing and saw way at the back of the crowd, it was an outdoor arena of some sort, his friend Bonnie being accosted by a man. Haggard let the band do its thing, left the stage and confronted the man with a gun. I'm sure that was never reported.

It apparently got reported somewhere in a biography.

But, if people really are serious about demonstrating that firearms work for self-defense, isn't it incumbent upon them to report it so they have the data they need?


-Blue Jay, Ph.D.*

*Yeah, it's real

Darwin loves you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4910 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 11:26 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4917 by Faith, posted 04-22-2016 1:31 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15560
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 4915 of 4987 (782364)
04-22-2016 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4908 by Theodoric
04-22-2016 10:39 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
For me your bullet points didn't add up to debunking the "good guy with gun" meme. It seems like debunking would require showing that guns intended for defensive use in some way increase rather than decrease danger. Maybe I'm missing something?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4908 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2016 10:39 AM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4918 by Theodoric, posted 04-22-2016 1:52 PM Percy has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 15560
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 4916 of 4987 (782365)
04-22-2016 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4913 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2016 11:39 AM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
Cat Sci writes:

I am addressing the study: It shows that more people are defending themselves from violent crime with firearms than are being killed by them.

While I didn't follow how the Theodoric's bullet points supported his contention, neither do I follow how they support yours. Again, maybe I'm missing something.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4913 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 11:39 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4919 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 1:59 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 24396
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4917 of 4987 (782370)
04-22-2016 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4914 by Blue Jay
04-22-2016 12:49 PM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
It apparently got reported somewhere in a biography.

But, if people really are serious about demonstrating that firearms work for self-defense, isn't it incumbent upon them to report it so they have the data they need?

The incident occurred back in the 80s or 90s.
I have no idea if Haggard was a big gun rights guy or not. He apparently felt the need to have a gun with him when he was on the road, but that incident is the only time it was brought up at all.
I would suppose there are many such unreported incidents, that's all. Perhaps as it becomes more of an issue they will get reported more.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4914 by Blue Jay, posted 04-22-2016 12:49 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5751
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4918 of 4987 (782375)
04-22-2016 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 4915 by Percy
04-22-2016 12:57 PM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
The NRA argument is that there are millions of examples that good guys with guns stop bad guys with a gun. This study shows that there are not millions of examples. Yes maybe I over sold the study. The point I was trying to make, albeit poorly, is that scientific studies show a different portrayal about guns than what the NRA is selling.

Thank you for calling me out on a poorly worded and poorly defended post.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4915 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 12:57 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4921 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 3:16 PM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11236
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 4919 of 4987 (782379)
04-22-2016 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 4916 by Percy
04-22-2016 12:59 PM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
~160,000 people defended themselves against violent crime with a firearm during a period where ~90,000 (3 years * 30,000 per year) people would have been killed by a firearm.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4916 by Percy, posted 04-22-2016 12:59 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 4920 by NoNukes, posted 04-22-2016 3:09 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9430
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 4920 of 4987 (782381)
04-22-2016 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4919 by New Cat's Eye
04-22-2016 1:59 PM


Re: New study debunks NRA arguments
160,000 people defended themselves against violent crime with a firearm during a period where ~90,000 (3 years * 30,000 per year) people would have been killed by a firearm.

Taking these numbers at face value still falls short of an argument in my opinion. Surely violent crimes include things like robberies, car jackings for example. What generally happens to people who don't have guns when they encounter such situations? How many of these defenses involve people with guns getting into encounters that the rest of us don't get into? How many of those defenses involve avoiding an ass whopping in a fight only an idiot would have gotten into in the first place. Because God forbid anyone take whooping with impunity.

The 90,000 number seems to stand on its own merits. However the 160,000 number needs quite a bit of parcing out before we can see some kind of balance between the relative safety involved with having or not having a gun.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King

If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4919 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 1:59 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4922 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-22-2016 3:28 PM NoNukes has responded

    
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