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EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House Gun Control Again Summations Only
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Author Topic:   Gun Control Again
Phat
Member
Posts: 10254
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 5086 of 5179 (821317)
10-05-2017 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 5085 by Percy
10-05-2017 11:42 AM


Re: Forensic Panel Profiles Vegas Killer
I disagree with the notoriety angle. I think it was more of a premeditated response to depression triggered by a losing streak.
Here is my synopsis:
He was a compulsive gambler. Politically, he was likely a conservative. He had genetic mental health issues, but these normally would not have been the predisposing factor. The factor was, as Percy suggested, that he was a compulsive/obsessive OCD brain damaged individual. We don't know what exactly he was angry at or whom, but it appears to be non-political...despite the forensic claim that the media needs to be more sensitive to gun owners.

I agree totally that he had lost much of his money and felt that he was failing (losing) at life. The attack was premeditated, and the fact that it was set up at a casino seems to suggest that he was mad at having his luck run out and his money(dreams) taken from him. So he lashed out in a depersonalized way. The target in my mind was Las Vegas itself.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
An atheist is someone who has no invisible means of support~Bishop Fulton J.Sheen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5085 by Percy, posted 10-05-2017 11:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 5088 by Theodoric, posted 10-05-2017 1:21 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5090 by PaulK, posted 10-05-2017 2:01 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 5099 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-06-2017 2:30 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 5110 by Minnemooseus, posted 10-10-2017 9:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19326
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


(2)
Message 5087 of 5179 (821318)
10-05-2017 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5078 by Theodoric
10-05-2017 10:54 AM


Re: Forensic Panel Profiles Vegas Killer
Don't you know that anything left of extreme right is leftist?

Of course, the leftist ideology is in control of much of the media...

The media is controlled by the media corporations and all they care about is profit/bottom line and not upsetting the applecart. That's why you don't see left wing extremist protests except as disruption of the status quo, nor do you see right wing extremist protests except as disruption of the status quo.

They are doing fine, no change needed thank you.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 5078 by Theodoric, posted 10-05-2017 10:54 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


(1)
Message 5088 of 5179 (821324)
10-05-2017 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5086 by Phat
10-05-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Forensic Panel Profiles Vegas Killer
Personally I think we need to wait for the experts and law enforcement to come up with the evidence or reasoning for his actions. Armchair psychology does no one any use.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5086 by Phat, posted 10-05-2017 12:14 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5089 of 5179 (821326)
10-05-2017 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 5084 by ringo
10-05-2017 11:35 AM


Re: silencers
NoNukes writes:

Everything has bad effects. There must be at least some kind of weighing.

Who said otherwise?

So far, your posts have shown complete disdain for a number of folks who have made that exact point.

Just to be absolutely clear, the reason we want to get input from doctors on medical practices is exactly for that reason. We should do that even if it is the doctors we are regulating. The same principle does not require that we consult murderers on how to punish them. We could instead consult psychologists or the police.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5084 by ringo, posted 10-05-2017 11:35 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5097 by ringo, posted 10-06-2017 11:59 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 13391
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5090 of 5179 (821328)
10-05-2017 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5086 by Phat
10-05-2017 12:14 PM


Re: Forensic Panel Profiles Vegas Killer
However, it seems that he spent a year accumulating equipment for the attack - or attacks - since he had explosives and the police say that he intended to escape.

He also used his girlfriend's ID even though he had got her out of the country. There is certainly a degree of premeditation here, and still nothing pointing to an attempt to advance a cause (not even the abolition of Country music)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5086 by Phat, posted 10-05-2017 12:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(2)
Message 5091 of 5179 (821331)
10-05-2017 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5074 by Stile
10-05-2017 9:14 AM


Re: Chart Help

Is this saying that the number of guns does make a difference? More guns = more homicide, regardless of rate-of-acquisition?

No - the point is that distribution matters. As an extreme example let's consider the difference between 1 person owning 300 million guns and 300 million people each owning 1 gun.

The argument goes that the latter is going to result in more deaths by shooting than the former. One person can't exactly wield even a significant percentage of those guns at once.

So, if gun ownership went from say, 22% of the population to 25% we might see a rise in deaths. If it went from 22% to 20% we'd see a fall. The absolute number of guns, the argument goes, is less important than the number of people that have them.

As it stands, about 50% of the guns in the US are owned by 3% of the population.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5074 by Stile, posted 10-05-2017 9:14 AM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5092 of 5179 (821333)
10-05-2017 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5062 by ringo
10-04-2017 3:45 PM


Re: silencers
In the real world, why do you think silencers are banned? Do you think our legislators are out to ruin the hearing of hunters?

In the real world - they mostly aren't banned. They are only banned in 8 States of the USA. California is one of them. I assume local politics is the reason, but I haven't taken the time to track down the arguments made in the legislature when the bills were being passed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5062 by ringo, posted 10-04-2017 3:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5093 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2017 7:57 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply
 Message 5098 by ringo, posted 10-06-2017 12:02 PM Modulous has responded

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 10127
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5093 of 5179 (821338)
10-05-2017 7:57 PM
Reply to: Message 5092 by Modulous
10-05-2017 4:09 PM


Re: silencers
I assume local politics is the reason, but I haven't taken the time to track down the arguments made in the legislature when the bills were being passed.

The Democrats in the US tend to cite law situations where enforcement cannot effectively find and track a shooting criminals because of the suppressor which lowers noise levels and the muzzle flash. Secondary arguments are that the suppressors are just one more gimmick to help gun manufacturers sell military weapons to the public. In other places, the primary objection seems to be that they are the tools of poachers.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I was thinking as long as I have my hands up theyre not going to shoot me. This is what Im thinking theyre not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey

We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.

Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith

I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5092 by Modulous, posted 10-05-2017 4:09 PM Modulous has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 5094 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 8:44 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 5094 of 5179 (821339)
10-05-2017 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5093 by NoNukes
10-05-2017 7:57 PM


Re: silencers
The Democrats in the US tend to cite law situations where enforcement cannot effectively find and track a shooting criminals because of the suppressor which lowers noise levels and the muzzle flash. Secondary arguments are that the suppressors are just one more gimmick to help gun manufacturers sell military weapons to the public. In other places, the primary objection seems to be that they are the tools of poachers.

I would love to be able to legally use a suppressor at the range - but I don't because its illegal.

If you're poaching, then breaking another law may not bother you, I dunno.

But I recalled an anecdote when I read your post:

I friend of mine from Texas had problems with wild hogs on his property. He was telling me about how suppressors were legal and they needed them to get rid of the hogs - they come in packs and it helps to get more than just one of them when they don't scatter as bad because the noise of the gunshots is a little quieter.

I can see how it'd help with hunting.

There's legitimate uses for suppressors and I think it sucks that I can't have one.


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 Message 5093 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2017 7:57 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.6


(1)
Message 5095 of 5179 (821369)
10-06-2017 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 5094 by New Cat's Eye
10-05-2017 8:44 PM


Re: silencers
If you're poaching, then breaking another law may not bother you, I dunno.

That is just a plain silly argument. You are saying why have laws, people will just break them. This argument actually undermines your stance.
quote:
But the entire argument misses the point, because the purpose of laws is to describe the most ideal set of rules and conditions that, when followed, produce socially optimal outcomes.Punishment in the form of fines, jail time, and social opprobrium functions as the enforcement mechanism behind these laws.So, it should be clear that the point of law has nothing to do with its adherence; thats the point of law enforcement.

I friend of mine from Texas had problems with wild hogs on his property. He was telling me about how suppressors were legal and they needed them to get rid of the hogs - they come in packs and it helps to get more than just one of them when they don't scatter as bad because the noise of the gunshots is a little quieter.
I can see how it'd help with hunting.

That is not hunting. That is pest control.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5094 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-05-2017 8:44 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5096 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-06-2017 11:38 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11858
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 5096 of 5179 (821373)
10-06-2017 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5095 by Theodoric
10-06-2017 10:45 AM


Re: silencers
That is just a plain silly argument. You are saying why have laws, people will just break them.

You misunderstood. That was in response to the statement of them being tools of poachers. I get why that's the case and I'm not saying why have laws.

That is not hunting. That is pest control.

Sure, there's an unstated "also" in front of that last sentence. It is a separate statement not to imply that pest control is defined as hunting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5095 by Theodoric, posted 10-06-2017 10:45 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


(1)
Message 5097 of 5179 (821377)
10-06-2017 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 5089 by NoNukes
10-05-2017 1:35 PM


Re: silencers
NoNukes writes:

The same principle does not require that we consult murderers on how to punish them. We could instead consult psychologists or the police.


That's a distinction without a difference. We do "consult" the murderers indirectly via the psychologists and the police. Gun owners should be "consulted" the same way, via psychologists and the police.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5089 by NoNukes, posted 10-05-2017 1:35 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 14002
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5098 of 5179 (821378)
10-06-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 5092 by Modulous
10-05-2017 4:09 PM


Re: silencers
Modulous writes:

They are only banned in 8 States of the USA.


The pertinent question is: Do firearms users in the other states routinely use them for hearing protection?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 5092 by Modulous, posted 10-05-2017 4:09 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5100 by Modulous, posted 10-06-2017 5:55 PM ringo has responded

LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 12-22-2015
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5099 of 5179 (821387)
10-06-2017 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 5086 by Phat
10-05-2017 12:14 PM


Sounds like the mental health slander is coming up again. I have academic sources.
First, the predictable comment.

quote:

He was a compulsive gambler. Politically, he was likely a conservative. He had genetic mental health issues, but these normally would not have been the predisposing factor. The factor was, as Percy suggested, that he was a compulsive/obsessive OCD brain damaged individual. We don't know what exactly he was angry at or whom, but it appears to be non-political...despite the forensic claim that the media needs to be more sensitive to gun owners.

The Lincoln Journal Star editorial actually seemed to be in touch with the fact that it is
(or was) the GOP that always brings up the mental health issue as the reason for gun violence while Democrats bring up the gun issue itself. The Star seemed to forget that things have changed, and now Democrats have jumped on that slander wagon.

I don't have the quotes but the paragraph that started the GOP viewpoint didn't mention that Democrats have bought the subscription.

Now my academic reference was spotted when I read the part of the introduction to Mario Scalora.

quote:

Lincoln Journal STAR

Wednesday, October 6, 2017

Local Security Experts Cite Las Vegas Shooting

by Cory Matteson

He's written or co-written numerous journal articles centered around threat assessment factors and nonfactors - he and fellow UNL psychology professor Heath Hodges argued in a 2015 paper titled "Challenging the Political Assumption that " 'Guns Don't Kill People, Crazy People Kill People!' " that lawmakers would be better served "if they focused on dangerousness as a disqualifying criteria rather than mental illness" regarding firearm possessions, for instance.


Glad I found that one.

It sounds right to me.

At least there isn't slanderous discrimination involved. (with lots of negative consequences)

Eugene Robinson seems to want discrimination though.

quote:

Carnage Will Continue

by Eugene Robinson

If not now, then when? Everyone agrees we should do something about mental health, but we end up doing nothing. A long series of sad funerals ends the ritual.


Gun Control at any cost is bad gun control.

I used to like the idea of bipartisanship until I saw that it brings us the worst possible compromise.

(However, I actually like the fact that Democrats have given the GOP many tens of billions in military spending increases in return for upping the NIH funding a few billion a year higher. The NIH is up to $36 billion in federal support now, so that is cool. It used to get cut or held frozen year after year)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5086 by Phat, posted 10-05-2017 12:14 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 5100 of 5179 (821398)
10-06-2017 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5098 by ringo
10-06-2017 12:02 PM


Re: silencers
The pertinent question is: Do firearms users in the other states routinely use them for hearing protection?

Yes. They are used to avoid damaging the ears, to avoid noise pollution complaints when hunting or recreational shooting and to reduce recoil as primary purposes.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5098 by ringo, posted 10-06-2017 12:02 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5101 by ringo, posted 10-07-2017 11:38 AM Modulous has responded

  
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