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Author Topic:   Who Made God?
Phat
Member
Posts: 10814
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 331 of 369 (826926)
01-14-2018 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by ICANT
01-13-2018 10:26 PM


Re: So What If God DID It?
I CANT writes:

Phat either God exists or He does not exist. Make up your mind.

Now lets see if I could see if there could possibly be a benefit to science if my God exists.

Seems to me like you are doing what this cartoon suggests...starting with a conclusion. Which strictly speaking is not science.

So tell me what you think about what the cartoon suggests?

Just because i believe that God exists does not prohibit me from questioning how believers think.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by ICANT, posted 01-13-2018 10:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 339 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:58 AM Phat has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2771
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 332 of 369 (826927)
01-14-2018 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 329 by Phat
01-14-2018 1:22 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
If you put 2 neutraly charged strips in a vacuum too close to gether to have space to form a virtual particle between them, the pressure from the vrirtual particles forming and coliding with the strands will push the strands together. On the quantum scale virtual particles are constantly poping in and out of existence, one positive one negative, and in the next moment they collide and cease to exists.

Also hawking radiation, where virtual particles become relal particles, a pair of virtual particles form near the event horizon of a black hole, one gets sucked in the other escapes as hawking radiation.

So if the law of conservation of energy can be bent on a whim at the quantum scale why do you think they couldn't be bent at the creation of the universe. Especially since it seams that the net energy of our universe is 0.

But im no expert on quantum mechanics, i dislike the math but love the experiments and theories so i could be wrong. But it seams that something can come from nothing as long as a negative something comes in to existence too.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 329 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 1:22 PM Phat has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 338 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:42 AM frako has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 333 of 369 (826933)
01-14-2018 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by LamarkNewAge
01-13-2018 11:55 PM


Re: So What If God DID It?
Hi LNA,

LNA writes:

This issue of life in the blood has to do with animals being allowed to be eaten by men after the flood.

Wherever you got your theology degree from you need to ask for a refund.

quote:
Leviticus 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.


These three verses go together in the original text and cover the complete thought under discussion in them.

This was written to the children of Israel.
Verse 10 says any man (Israelite or sojourner) who eats any manner of blood will be cut off.

Verse 11 says the life of the flesh is in the blood. It also says blood has been shed to make an atonement.

Verse 12 says Therefore... no soul (living being) of you shall eat blood.

What are these verses talking about? Eating blood.
What is said concerning eating blood? Man forbidden from eating blood.
Why are they forbidden from eating blood?
Because the life of the flesh is in the blood.
What is the results of eating blood? Cut off from the promise.

Is the life of the flesh in the blood?

quote:
Bloodletting (or blood-letting) is the withdrawal of blood from a patient to prevent or cure illness and disease. Bloodletting was based on an ancient system of medicine in which blood and other bodily fluids were regarded as "humours" that had to remain in proper balance to maintain health. It is claimed to have been the most common medical practice performed by surgeons from antiquity until the late 19th century, a span of almost 2,000 years.[1] In Europe the practice continued to be relatively common until the end of the 18th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloodletting

That don't sound like myth's or gods or religion to me. It sounds like the people that fancied themselves as medical people used bloodletting to treat sickness.

LNA writes:

(How people that call themselves Christian can be so ignorant about sacrifice (think Jesus!) always amazes me, except for my awareness of the total complete brainwashing that is always going on)

Why don't you get your facts straight before you start calling people ignorant.

I know blood was shed and used in sacrifices in the old testament. I also know the Israelites were not supposed to eat meat that the blood had been offered as a sacrifice. I also know God came to earth and took on the form of a man we called Jesus and shed the blood of that physical body at Calvary to buy mankind back out of slavery.

But the Bible Leviticus 17:11 says "For the life of the flesh is in the blood", which has been proven to be a fact by modern science.

Cut that any way you like.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-13-2018 11:55 PM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 365 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-20-2018 12:14 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 334 of 369 (826937)
01-14-2018 11:17 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by LamarkNewAge
01-14-2018 12:05 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi LNA,

LNA writes:

So did God come after the Universe?

quote:

The option I actually believe and have stated numerous times on this site.
4. The universe has always existed in some form just not in the form it is today. Somewhere in eternity past (I will let you guys guess the numbers) The all powerful eternal God I serve created the heavens and the earth in 1 light period (day as described by God Genesis 1:5). God spoke and the events you talk about taking place
happened, There was much preparation needed for the earth to be ready to be inhabited by mankind.

What part of eternal do you not understand?

LNA writes:

Because you never stated how God could get here.

I have always said God was eternal that means He has no beginning and no end.

LNA writes:

You keep saying that SOMETHING CAN'T COME FROM NOTHING but previously you seemed to be saying God did that very thing.

I have never said God came from nothing God is eternal, infinite.

LNA writes:

Can you please paste the text to your articles (like Hawking's) that no longer exist on the internet?

And can you please paste links to your articles when they are presently on the internet?

I said if I could find the article I would post them. But it does not matter he has already ditched them.

Any article I quote from I post where you can find it. If I missed one point it out and I will get the location.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-14-2018 12:05 AM LamarkNewAge has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 335 of 369 (826945)
01-15-2018 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 324 by LamarkNewAge
01-14-2018 12:16 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi LNA,

LNA writes:

Space is being created today, and even you would say it is naturalistic.

I don't know what that has to do with getting information past T=10-43 s., towards the zero side.

But maybe you or someone here could enlighten me on how space is being created today.

Everything is inside the pea sized universe that is supposed to exist at T=10-43 s.. There is nothing outside not even space? Although I have been told the universe is expanding. I have never had anyone explain how the universe can be expanding as there is nothing for it to expand into. If there is nothing outside of the universe there would not be any space for the universe to expand into. It would still be the size of a pea.

LNA writes:

The whole problem about this "beginning" being evidence that "proves God", is that you (and everybody else?) don't say where God came from.

We say, you just shut your eyes and don't see it on the screen. God is infinite.

LNA writes:

A genuine effort would reveal that the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS would quickly arise once we attempted a solution for how God came to be in the first place.

He didn't HE IS.

Either an eternal power created the universe or the universe has existed eternally itself. Science says the universe has not always existed. Energy and mass are interchangeable. But every time they change there is unusable power and it is lost. That means if the universe was eternal it would have to have an external power source, or it would have already run out of power and died a cold death.

LNA writes:

Space and Matter were part of something that always existed.

It would have to be something very powerful as there are a lot energy and matter in the universe.

But if there was a infinite amount of space and matter what would kick start it and cause it to form the universe.

LNA writes:

Space and matter evolved (or popped up under certain circumstances) from nothing.

quote:
Due to the weirdness of quantum mechanics, nothing transforms into something all the time. Heisenberg's uncertainty principle states that a system can never have precisely zero energy and since energy and mass are equivalent, pairs of particles can form spontaneously as long as they annihilate one another very quickly.

The less energy such a system has, the longer it can stick around. Thanks to gravity – the only force that always attracts – the net energy balance of the universe may be as close to zero as you can get. This makes its lifespan of almost 14 billion years plausible.


https://www.newscientist.com/...e-appeared-from-nothing.html

I agree those things can happen in our universe as this universe is full of energy that is everywhere. Including some that has never been see but is there to hold the universe together.

But when you have nothing you would have a system with zero energy to start with and there would be no energy to start.

If I understand what the above quote says correctly and:
Nothing equals zero energy.
Non Existence equals zero energy.

Since nothing equals zero energy absolutely nothing can pop into existence as a system can not exist without energy.

quote:
If you take inflation into account, which physicists think caused rapid expansion in the early universe, we begin to see why MIT physicist Alan Guth calls the universe the "ultimate free lunch."
emphasis added
https://www.newscientist.com/...e-appeared-from-nothing.html

I love that business of 'think', but there is zero evidence for inflation.
Sir Roger Penrose declared inflation was a fantasy in the quote I used in one of my earlier posts.

LNA writes:

Space and Matter were "eternal" in the same way God is described as "always being there".

cavediver told me once that the universe just is. Which would be what you are stating.

Space is just that space. Matter is just matter, what would transform it into energy and where would the directions come from to get it to do anything.

You are making a great case for my eternal God who is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-14-2018 12:16 AM LamarkNewAge has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 364 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-20-2018 12:52 AM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 336 of 369 (826946)
01-15-2018 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by NoNukes
01-14-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

And there is no smallest number just bigger than zero.

Should I throw my text book away then?

The number T=1x10-6176 is equal to the smallest positive non-zero value that can be represented by a quadruple-precision IEEE decimal floating-point value.

If that number is wrong, what is the right number?

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by NoNukes, posted 01-14-2018 1:29 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by DrJones*, posted 01-15-2018 12:14 PM ICANT has not yet responded
 Message 357 by NoNukes, posted 01-18-2018 12:33 PM ICANT has responded
 Message 367 by Son Goku, posted 01-20-2018 3:57 PM ICANT has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 337 of 369 (826948)
01-15-2018 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by NoNukes
01-14-2018 1:29 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi NoNukes,

NoNukes writes:

Do you know why there is any current limit on our ability to opine on the state of the universe?

You can opine anything you fell like opining.

So how about opining as to what would be required to get information further back than T=10-43 s. That is what I was asking for. According to Son Goku it was a quintillion degrees at T=10-43 s.

It boggles my mind to even think about getting information from T=10-43 s that the universe is there and expanding.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by NoNukes, posted 01-14-2018 1:29 PM NoNukes has not yet responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 338 of 369 (826949)
01-15-2018 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by frako
01-14-2018 2:24 PM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Hi fraco,

fraco writes:

If you put 2 neutraly charged strips in a vacuum too close to gether to have space to form a virtual particle between them, the pressure from the vrirtual particles forming and coliding with the strands will push the strands together. On the quantum scale virtual particles are constantly poping in and out of existence, one positive one negative, and in the next moment they collide and cease to exists.

It does require a vacuum to exist for that to take place.

Is there a vacuum outside the universe where this process could occur?

I have been told here on this web site that there is nothing outside of the universe. That it is a self-contained universe that existed a T=10-43 s and was expanding.

That being the case the universe could not begin to exist by such a process.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by frako, posted 01-14-2018 2:24 PM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 4:58 AM ICANT has responded

    
ICANT
Member
Posts: 5878
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 339 of 369 (826950)
01-15-2018 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Phat
01-14-2018 1:33 PM


Re: So What If God DID It?
Hi Phat,

Phat writes:

Seems to me like you are doing what this cartoon suggests...starting with a conclusion. Which strictly speaking is not science.

The facts are already there and have been for over 2500 years. All I did was point out the facts. And I have known those facts for the better part of 68 years.

Phat writes:

Just because i believe that God exists does not prohibit me from questioning how believers think.

As long as you make comments like the one below I am not sure you belive God does exist.

Message 315

Phat writes:

Even if God exists and even if He is the God YOU understand

Making the statement "Even if" is questioning God's existence.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Phat, posted 01-14-2018 1:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 9:18 AM ICANT has responded

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2771
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 340 of 369 (826952)
01-15-2018 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 338 by ICANT
01-15-2018 1:42 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Is there a vacuum outside the universe where this process could occur?

A perfect one not even space and time "inside it"


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 338 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:42 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 9:57 AM frako has responded
 Message 347 by ICANT, posted 01-17-2018 12:34 AM frako has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10814
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 341 of 369 (826960)
01-15-2018 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by ICANT
01-15-2018 1:58 AM


Re: So What If God DID It?
I CANT, I thought I would share with you an exchange that I had with my own Pastor, recently.

He likely thinks much the same way that you do, and I know that his reply will be ridiculed here at EvC, but nobody here is as well known by me as he is, and I value his input.

This is our conversation:

ME --my faith has been tested lately...I believe, but I dont believe in what people tell me I need to believe in.
I believe that Jesus is Lord, that He is alive today and that He is Gods Son, Creator of all seen and unseen, but I do not believe in a word for word literal Bible...that stuff you guys teach about a literal Genesis and all that...makes no sense logically. I refuse to simply shut my eyes tight and declare that I believe THAT!

PASTOR--That’s your pitfall. The foundation of our faith is in Genesis. If you don’t believe that your foundation is built on sand and your faith will never be stable.

ME--I just have to be honest...I cant believe in something that is not logical.
Ken Ham is not a strong Christian, by the way. The reason I come to bug you is that I believe that you are, but my issue is with God and not humans.(although some humans are willfully ignorant)

PASTOR--You want a creator who does things according to your logic. You fail to realize He is beyond what our brains can fathom.

ME--my intelligence is likely my downfall...I wish I could just have the trusting faith of a child, but I must be honest with myself
and yes you have a point...

PASTOR--Your intelligence? Think about that statement. Your intelligence. It’s minuscule in comparison to an infinite God.

ME--I know. that I DO believe!

PASTOR--You.... you are your own issue. You have to learn the all-important lesson of dying to self.

I CANT writes:

Making the statement "Even if" is questioning God's existence.

The reason that I frame my statements that way is to present my belief the way that many people at EvC would understand. jar taught me the idea that God cannot be proven, thus to frame the issue as a belief against reality is more honest than to declare that what I believe is reality.

Edited by Phat, : spelling

Edited by Phat, : explanation


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by ICANT, posted 01-15-2018 1:58 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2018 12:19 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10814
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 342 of 369 (826968)
01-15-2018 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by frako
01-15-2018 4:58 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
This article helped me conceptualize the idea of a universe expanding into space.
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/...anding-into-intermediate

Edited by Phat, : fixed broken link


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 4:58 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 10:15 AM Phat has responded

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2771
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 343 of 369 (826969)
01-15-2018 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Phat
01-15-2018 9:57 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
broken link for me

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 9:57 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 10:43 AM frako has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10814
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 344 of 369 (826973)
01-15-2018 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by frako
01-15-2018 10:15 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/...anding-into-intermediate

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 10:15 AM frako has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by frako, posted 01-15-2018 11:06 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
frako
Member
Posts: 2771
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 345 of 369 (826975)
01-15-2018 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Phat
01-15-2018 10:43 AM


Re: Eternal power (energy)
Im more of a believer in extra dimensions as posited by string, superstring or m or brain theory. Our universe is just one expanding 3D bouble in a 10 D, or more dimensional multiverse. So i have no problems whit our universe expanding.

But its not like we can prove this whitout taking a peek at those extra dimensions, But some observations about gravity suggest there might be other universes pulling on us, and there is also some evidence that our universe might have at one time collided with another.

As for how our universe got to be, its just a quantum fluctuation in higher dimensions. Like a virtual particle it just came to existence because there was a chance it could.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Phat, posted 01-15-2018 10:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
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