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Author Topic:   The God Hypothesis
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 19 of 150 (689742)
02-04-2013 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Spiritual Anarchist
02-02-2013 8:41 PM


If God is the Universe as a whole, then it seems to me that Quantum Mechanics is on the exact opposite side of the continuum of things we should be looking into.
Its like trying to appreciate the Mona Lisa by investigating how the molecules in the pigments are interacting. That doesn't make any sense to me at all.
Also, why even call it "God"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 02-02-2013 8:41 PM Spiritual Anarchist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 02-04-2013 6:06 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 150 (689761)
02-04-2013 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
02-04-2013 12:23 PM


Re: Awareness
Spiritual Anarchist writes:
Because according to Libet my body behaves without me.
Your body is you. There is no "without" you.
Most of the time my body does what I will it to do, but occasionally it reacts on its own without any willingness on my mind's part. It makes it feel like there's a seperation between the me that is in my head and the body that its attached to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 02-04-2013 12:23 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2013 6:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 50 by ringo, posted 02-06-2013 11:34 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 35 of 150 (689852)
02-05-2013 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Spiritual Anarchist
02-04-2013 6:06 PM


Re: God?
Yeah I guess as an atheist most of my life I always wondered why anyone would call the Universe God. Esp when the Pantheist I met usually didn't believe in religion or a personal God. Not sure what other term to use. Usually I just say "The Source" but then I feel like I am watering down the experience to make it palatable.
But if beneath the subatomic level of the Universe there is pure energy, and if this energy interacts on the quantum level to create our Universe ...and maybe other Universes and this is a creative act of awareness ..
...then the Universe is a being.
But the Universe is not aware. Some tiny specs of it are, ie humans, but that requires having a brain. The Universe doesn't have a brain.
I guess I should just call it The Awareness Hypothesis" . I think it is self evident that there are sentient beings in the Universe and I think it can be found to be true using observation that the Universe itself is sentient. That sentience is the nature of anything living and the universe is a living thing.
Why should I think that the Universe is either sentient or living? And what observations are you talking about?
Quantum Physics to me is the Biology of the Universe . We are biological and reproduce using materialism in nature. The Multiverse is biological in a different way and reproduces Universes using the energy of the Quantum.
Sorry, but that's just a meaningless word salad. It makes no sense.
If consciousness was simply electrochemical baths in the brain creating predictable behavior patterns in animals that were in no way self aware ...except in relation to survival ...then the hard problem of consciousness would not exist.
How do you know that? How do you know that the hard problem of consciousness can't be solved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Spiritual Anarchist, posted 02-04-2013 6:06 PM Spiritual Anarchist has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 36 of 150 (689854)
02-05-2013 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by AZPaul3
02-04-2013 6:18 PM


Re: Awareness
It makes it feel like there's a seperation between the me that is in my head and the body that its attached to.
Interesting.
You are not talking about reflex reactions, I don't think.
Actually I was including reflex reactions, but that's just one part of it.
And I don't think you're talking about physics in action where you push the wrong way on the ice and no matter how hard you wish end up on your butt anyway.
You're right, I'm not talking about that at all.
Care to share?
Sure.
We're all sitting around passing the bong. "Hey, I need a lighter", I say. Jimbo throws one really hard right past me. Before I even realize what's happening, my arm springs and my hand flies out and grabs it out right of the air. "Whoa, you're a Jedi", Jimbo jokes. "Yeah, that was weird", I realize.
I'm playing the piano, even though I know which notes are to be played, and I'm willing my hands to play them, sometimes my fingers just won't do what I'm commanding them to. Other times, I'm approaching a particularly difficult part of a song, and my fingers just nail it. "I don't know how the hell I just made it through that part without messing up", I'll think to myself in amazement.
I notice I'm out of bread so I get in the car to go to the store. Then I start thinking about what other things I might need from the store. I get into pretty deep thought and then I realize that I've already driven half-way to work. Thinking back I don't even recall making specific turns, did I even use the blinker, holy shit who was driving this thing?
Or how about when your leg cramps up and your all: "OMG, stop! STAHP!" (Hrm, does your leg receive a signal from the brain to contract the muscle when it cramps up like that? Or is that the muscle going haywire or something?)
Or when you have a twitch, or some shakes, or you flinch.
Here's a good one:
You are now breathing manually.
When its involuntary you don't even think about it. Its outside of your mind. Then when it enters your mind, you have to take control of your body yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by AZPaul3, posted 02-04-2013 6:18 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by AZPaul3, posted 02-05-2013 5:59 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 150 (689907)
02-06-2013 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by AZPaul3
02-05-2013 5:59 PM


Re: Awareness
This is totally off topic, but, hey ...
Well, it does tie into the awareness thing that OP mentioned in Message 16 (that this string stems from). So I'm going with it.
Most of the reflex reactions, like the doctor hitting your knee with that little rubber hatchet of his or accidentally touching a hot stove, are short circuited in the spinal column, if I recall. There is a threshold of signal that just passes up the cord to the brain, but over that threshold the spinal wiring will loop back part of the signal to some muscles to twitch away from the danger. The brain doesn't find out about it till after the fact.
So I've been reading, turns out I'm way out of my league... but that's never stopped me before.
Anyways, before reading, I was under the impression that the brain pretty much controls everything. I'd forgotten that the spinal cord is a pretty big part of the brain-system. I suppose you already know this stuff, but I've still got the tabs open and I think the lurkers can benefit. The old doctor-hitting-your-knee thing, that's the Patellar reflex, and you're right that it all happens in the spinal cord:
click to enlarge
What else that I found particularly interesting, was that the Patellar reflex occurs all the way down in the yellow section, around the L2 - L4 vertebrae. So yeah, its not even really all that close to the brain at all! No wonder the brain finds out later.
Muscle spasms and cramps are not brain directed and are mostly chemical screw-ups in the tissue or nerves from over use, under use or injury.
I can see how that could be more of a chemistry problem than a biological one, so that doesn't really tie into the awareness aspect.
So, yeah, I can see where you would say these things are "body" vs brain controlled.
Ringo said that your body IS you. I tend to think the other way. The "me" that I am is the conscious, sentient, part of the mind. And its begins to look like it has been distanced from the body.
The reason I found this interesting is because a few articles I read some months ago (wish I could find them) covered a number of studies with some strange implications. Some Neurologists and Psyrinks are starting to suggest that the conscious mind is just an input/output interface between the universe and the subconscious mind. The subconscious mind is where all the analysis and the decision-making take place and the conscious mind carries out those commands that require an outside interface. All the senses are wired into the brain and are shared by the subconscious and conscious, but the subconscious decides what to do about it all. They also speculated that the conscious mind’s realization of the actions may precede or lag behind the actual action as well as serving as memory of intent already decided by the subconscious.
That actually adds-up, to me. If we look at some of the "dumber" animals, they seem to be going about just fine despite not having much in the way of sentience and consciousness. The levels of those things that we enjoy are plagued by, is a recent development in evolutionary history. It makes sense that they'd be an additional, or after-the-fact, kind of phenomenon.
Our senetience is an emergent property. The hard problem of consciousness kinda goes away a bit if you look at yourself from the other side. Rather than being the sentient portion of your mind, that happens to have this body that it is controlling, you're just another robot-like animal that has developed a level of sentience that, upon reflection, just seems to be distinct from the rest of the body. But really, the body is what you are, and the mind is something that develops within it. Without the "you-that-is-in-your-mind", you would still function as an ape bumbling around looking for food and mates. Its only after you self-reflect, that there seems to be some problem between the "you-that-is-in-your-mind" and the body that it only superficially seems to be in control of. But really, you are your body, and your mind is only an afterthought.
Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by AZPaul3, posted 02-05-2013 5:59 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by AZPaul3, posted 02-06-2013 2:12 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 54 by Stile, posted 02-06-2013 2:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
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