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Author Topic:   The God Hypothesis
Straggler
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 10188
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 76 of 150 (691747)
02-25-2013 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by kofh2u
02-22-2013 3:38 PM


Re: Dualism
Excellent. Let's add that to our table.

Quantum Theory SaysBuddhism Says.
In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle, such as position x and momentum p, can be known simultaneously The term Sunyata in Madhyamaka Buddhism is a description of emptiness. That things don't really exist in of themselves but are dependent on things in relation to them and also upon the observation of them. ("observation" explicitly included as per 1.61803 unsourced assertion)
The holographic principle suggests that the entire universe can be seen as a two-dimensional information structure "painted" on the cosmological horizon, such that the three dimensions we observe are only an effective description at macroscopic scales and at low energies
Wave–particle duality postulates that all particles exhibit both wave and particle properties. A central concept of quantum mechanics, this duality addresses the inability of classical concepts like "particle" and "wave" to fully describe the behaviour of quantum-scale objects
In physics, the Eightfold Way is a term coined by American physicist Murray Gell-Mann for a theory organizing subatomic baryons and mesons into octets. The Eightfold Way may be understood in modern terms as a consequence of flavor symmetries between various kinds of quarks. Since the strong nuclear force affects quarks the same way regardless of their flavor, replacing one flavor of quark with another in a hadron should not alter its mass very much. Mathematically, this replacement may be described by elements of the SU(3) group. The octets and other arrangements are representations of this group.The Noble Eightfold Path is one of the principal teachings of the Buddha, who described it as the way leading to the cessation of suffering (dukkha) and the achievement of self-awakening. It is used to develop insight into the true nature of phenomena (or reality) and to eradicate greed, hatred, and delusion. All eight elements of the Path begin with the word "right", which translates the word samyańc (in Sanskrit) or sammā (in Pāli). These denote completion, togetherness, and coherence, and can also suggest the senses of "perfect" or "ideal". 'Samma' is also translated as 'wholesome', 'wise' and 'skillful'.

Personally I see little similarity between the Buddhist eightfold path and Gellman's eightfold way beyond both seeking to tell us something about reality and Gellman's playful use of phraseology.

But feel free to highlight further similarities if you think there are any.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by kofh2u, posted 02-22-2013 3:38 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by kofh2u, posted 02-25-2013 10:13 AM Straggler has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 77 of 150 (691761)
02-25-2013 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Straggler
02-25-2013 6:03 AM


Re: Dualism

Personally I see little similarity between the Buddhist eightfold path and Gellman's eightfold way beyond both seeking to tell us something about reality and Gellman's playful use of phraseology.

But feel free to highlight further similarities if you think there are any.

Of course you don't see beyond the enumeration and emphasis of the number 8.
For you, Gellman was just noting the enumerations are similar.

But Gellman was saying "as above, so below," sensing that the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own "elemental atomism" (?), referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.

Hence we see other physicists linking Human Consciousness to Quantum effects, and expanding upon Gellman with books like "The Tao of Physics," etc.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2013 6:03 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2013 11:28 AM kofh2u has responded

    
Straggler
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 10188
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 78 of 150 (691770)
02-25-2013 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by kofh2u
02-25-2013 10:13 AM


Re: Dualism
Kof writes:

But Gellman was saying "as above, so below," sensing that the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own "elemental atomism" (?), referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.

Really? Was he? Where are you getting that from? I have read that Gell-Man's reference to Buddhism was intended as ironic.

quote:
His Eightfold Way, which he named ironically after the Buddhist path to nirvana, draws sub-atomic particles together in a pattern akin to Mendeleev's Periodic Table of Elements.

Link

But let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that Gell-man was doing as you are asserting (namely concluding that "the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own elemental atomism referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.")

That would make him a substance dualist wouldn't it? Now whether Gell-man is a substance dualist or not is irrelevant to the defensibility of substance duality is a proposition isn't it? So what is your point?

Kof writes:

Hence we see other physicists linking Human Consciousness to Quantum effects, and expanding upon Gellman with books like "The Tao of Physics," etc.

The Tao of Physics is exactly the sort of pop-science Cavediver was referring to:

SA writes:

Buddhist have already made all the observation Quantum Physicist have made about the nature of our Universe.

Cavediver writes:

No, I can assure you that they have not.

However, I will agree that pop-science accounts of the quantum nature of the Universe have more in common with Buddism that they do any particular quantum theory, and there-in probably lies your confusion.

Message 14


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by kofh2u, posted 02-25-2013 10:13 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by kofh2u, posted 02-27-2013 10:37 AM Straggler has responded
 Message 95 by kofh2u, posted 03-05-2013 2:24 PM Straggler has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 79 of 150 (692007)
02-27-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Straggler
02-25-2013 11:28 AM


...appeals to each other's authority...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His Eightfold Way, which he named ironically after the Buddhist path to nirvana, draws sub-atomic particles together in a pattern akin to Mendeleev's Periodic Table of Elements.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Link

But let us suppose, for the sake of argument, that Gell-man was doing as you are asserting (namely concluding that "the metaphysical insight of Buddhism referred to the kingdom within, while his own elemental atomism referred to the kingdom external to man, or Reality.")

That would make him a substance dualist wouldn't it? Now whether Gell-man is a substance dualist or not is irrelevant to the defensibility of substance duality is a proposition isn't it?

So what is your point?

Well, let's say that the assumptions, that Gellman was being ironic, as some writers infer he was,...
...then, his dualism is at least as relevant as what Cavediver has to say,... which is to merely pay lip service to his already decidedly bias and closed mindedness on this discussion.

The Physicist who wrote Tao of Physics must speak for his own defense against laymen who assert that what they say is "pop-science accounts of the quantum nature of the Universe."

But what I see is Gellman subtly, perhaps subconsciously, recognizing something at work inside the mind which is elemental to what he is recognizing externally in the real world. He seems to sense a metaphysical inference to a pattern which is revealing itself in both.

That he organizes the Elemental Particles from which the twelve Families of the Chemical Elements appeared, he establishes a very similar pattern in both cases that may have influenced his comments.

We see in the study of AI, that psychologists like Guilford have also been interested in this Pattern.
Guilford explored the scope of the adult intellect by providing the concept of intelligence with a strong, comprehensive theoretical backing.
The Structure-of-Intellect model (SI model) was designed as a cross classification system with intersections in the model providing the basis for abilities similar to periodic table in chemistry.

In other words, the religious ideas ponder the working of the mind, within, while science organizes the external world in ways which mirror a repetitious pattern to the temple of our intelligence.

I can not here present an argument for the things which would support Gellman's unconscious Freudian slips, be that what they were, but when we see that Gellman's work leads us to an analogous Chart of the Elemental Particles, one corresponding to the same derived by Mendeleev, at least suspicions ought arise that their is some metaphysical, if not religious, connection to QM.

This chart above was constructed before the Higgs paricle physics was even hypothesized, and some of the Bosons hve been re-defined or more clearly described and experimental observed since.

But the general pattern illustrates how piece by piece, unaware of the pattern suggested here, scientists have been "filling in the spaces" that MUST(?) be filled in before we have The Truth.

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Straggler, posted 02-25-2013 11:28 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 02-27-2013 4:28 PM kofh2u has responded

    
Straggler
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 10188
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 80 of 150 (692072)
02-27-2013 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by kofh2u
02-27-2013 10:37 AM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
It's easy to suggest pointlessly vague correlations in paragraphs of prose. But much more difficult to specify actual one to one comparisons between modern physics and Buddhism. Your post seems to be little more than a very long winded way of saying this:

Quantum Theory SaysBuddhism Says.
Predictable patternsPredictable patterns

That both modern science and Buddhism conclude that things are ordered in recognisable patterns is hardly a great revelation or cause for wonderment at the startling similarities between the two.

I mean what is the alternative? To conclude that things are entirely random with no discernible patterns at all? You only have to watch the Sun rise each day to conclude "patterns". You don't need quantum theory.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by kofh2u, posted 02-27-2013 10:37 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 2:56 PM Straggler has responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 81 of 150 (692277)
03-01-2013 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Straggler
02-27-2013 4:28 PM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...

That both modern science and Buddhism conclude that things are ordered in recognisable patterns is hardly a great revelation or cause for wonderment at the startling similarities between the two.

I mean what is the alternative? To conclude that things are entirely random with no discernible patterns at all? You only have to watch the Sun rise each day to conclude "patterns". You don't need quantum theory.

That would all probably be true.

Unless Religion was actually telling us that only one special kind of Pattern exists by which man recognizes what is True about the Reality he inquires about.

And, it would be equally important is Gellman had given Buddhism too much credit for the pattern he saw emerging, and Judaism too little:



This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 02-27-2013 4:28 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Eli, posted 03-02-2013 12:18 AM kofh2u has responded
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2013 4:03 AM kofh2u has responded
 Message 88 by Straggler, posted 03-03-2013 5:09 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
Eli
Member (Idle past 846 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 82 of 150 (692357)
03-02-2013 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kofh2u
03-01-2013 2:56 PM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
You need to brush up on your aleph beth a little better.

Looks like you are arbitrarily assigning letters to names and to doubles and mothers with no rhyme or reason.

The three mothers are Aleph, then Shin and Mem.

Air, fire, water.

Doubles are named so because each letter has two pronounciations.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 2:56 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by kofh2u, posted 03-02-2013 9:40 AM Eli has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15485
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.9


Message 83 of 150 (692366)
03-02-2013 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kofh2u
03-01-2013 2:56 PM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
Unless Religion was actually telling us that ...

If that was what religion was actually telling us, then religion might as well have told us "nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!" Because that would have been equally enlightening.

It seems that what religion tells "us" is so obscure that you are the first person ever to figure out what it tells us. Either I should say hooray for you! ... or ... maybe you are not the first prophet designated by God to tell us what his scriptures really mean. Maybe you're just another guy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 2:56 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by kofh2u, posted 03-02-2013 9:33 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 84 of 150 (692376)
03-02-2013 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dr Adequate
03-02-2013 4:03 AM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...

If that was what religion was actually telling us, then religion might as well have told us "nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!" Because that would have been equally enlightening.

It seems that what religion tells "us" is so obscure that you are the first person ever to figure out what it tells us. Either I should say hooray for you! ... or ... maybe you are not the first prophet designated by God to tell us what his scriptures really mean. Maybe you're just another guy.

1) The reason that the religious people killed all the prophets was that what they said had never been said before without the generation which heard it also killing them, (and now even you "science savvy" people?).

2) What I posted, however, is not my observation entirely.
I do observe that there is a connection to these ideas when Graphically Organized.
That connection does seem to support the hypothesis that there is a Pattern which re-occurs again and again as men organize, order, and establish whole over views of various studies and topics.

3) The people who have said this long before myself were called Kabbalist.
They we Jews, and in most cases as far as I understand, very religious and theologically knowledgeable people. But what they were studying and researching apparently was focused on this idea, here.

4) The point of this Pattern is that it implies that there is a required (and also validating) organization to everything man conceives, or is able to conceive, in regard to the external world and his own ability to model that world inside his head.

5) ...and there is evidence that this can be re-discovered in the Bible where various hints and geometries were used to incorporate this Kabbalah into scripture.
In those Jewish scriptures there is a reference to the Urim and Thummim, [Ex 28:30].
Though long lost to the religious community, and most certainly never searched for, even vehemently impeded and suppressed, the same religious community has carried forward the Bible wherein the prophets of Kabbalah have re-discovered it again and again.

6) In regard to ""nmbl grmble fnumble, bnufigrf fnah!"
Isaiah had a response that anticipated such a reaction which I am sure always confronted those Kabbalist of earlier times in an angry protest against them.

The "crime" of having an original thought which fired up the jealousy of smart people more prone to criticism and an authoritative use of their Establishments to keep "newbies" out said stuff like, "Sav, lasav, kav, lakav, seer shem."

13 Therefore the word of the Lord will be to them [merely monotonous repeatings of]:
precept upon precept, (sav), precept upon precept, (lasav), rule upon rule, (kav), rule upon rule; (lakav), here a little, (seer), there a little, (shem)....

—that they may go and fall backward, and be broken and snared and taken.

Or simply,...

Isaiah 28:13
GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
13 The Lord speaks utter nonsense to them.
That is why they will fall backwards.
That is why they will be hurt, trapped, and captured.


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 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-02-2013 4:03 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 85 of 150 (692377)
03-02-2013 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Eli
03-02-2013 12:18 AM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...

You need to brush up on your aleph beth a little better.
Looks like you are arbitrarily assigning letters to names and to doubles and mothers with no rhyme or reason.

The three mothers are Aleph, then Shin and Mem.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Eli, posted 03-02-2013 12:18 AM Eli has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Eli, posted 03-03-2013 1:33 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 86 of 150 (692392)
03-02-2013 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by kofh2u
02-14-2013 12:15 AM


Re: The Free Lunch Fallacy
kofh2u writes:

The ID people are off track since Intelligence is the ability to understand Reality, not to manufacture it.


That's what I always say. Intelligence can only operate within the system.

kofh2u writes:

Intelligence is the measure of one ability to state the Truth about reality, or the facts of life that are inherent in reality.We actually measure intelligence by how many true answers we can count out of a questionnaire of one type of another.


Intelligence is the measure of one's ability to operate within the system. It depends on observation of the system and derivation of correct - i.e. "working" - cause-and-effect relationships within the system. If you can figure out what makes it go, you can make it go.

Conversely, intelligence can't operate on anything outside the sytem. What we can't observe, we can't understand. If "Truth" is beyond the understanding of intelligence, then "Truth" is irrelevant to human beings.

If God is "Truth", then God is irrelevant.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by kofh2u, posted 02-14-2013 12:15 AM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by kofh2u, posted 03-03-2013 1:21 PM ringo has responded

  
Eli
Member (Idle past 846 days)
Posts: 274
Joined: 08-24-2012


Message 87 of 150 (692433)
03-03-2013 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by kofh2u
03-02-2013 9:40 AM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
Not even close.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by kofh2u, posted 03-02-2013 9:40 AM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 103 days)
Posts: 10188
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 88 of 150 (692434)
03-03-2013 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by kofh2u
03-01-2013 2:56 PM


Re: ...appeals to each other's authority...
If I were to provide you with a bar graph of Manchester United's year on year goal tally and a another bar graph showing monthly rainfall in Berlin do you think we could conclude that these two thing share deep metaphysical underpinnings because they look pictorially similar?

Taking disparate things and representing them in a pictorially similar fashion demonstrates nothing but a human tendency to exhibit data pictorially.

Kof writes:

And, it would be equally important is Gellman had given Buddhism too much credit for the pattern he saw emerging, and Judaism too little:

Ah. So it is Judaism rather than Buddhism whose prescience and equivalence to modern physics we should be marveling at?

I guess everyone wants their preferred brand of mysticism to be the one that is most in line with scientific findings. But why are advocates of mysticism so eager to have their beliefs validated in this way?

Kof writes:

Unless Religion was actually telling us that only one special kind of Pattern exists by which man recognizes what is True about the Reality he inquires about.

Can you reveal to the rest of us what this special pattern is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by kofh2u, posted 03-01-2013 2:56 PM kofh2u has not yet responded

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 89 of 150 (692452)
03-03-2013 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by ringo
03-02-2013 12:16 PM


Intelligence IS Truth

kofh2u writes:
Intelligence is the measure of one ability to state the Truth about reality, or the facts of life that are inherent in reality.We actually measure intelligence by how many true answers we can count out of a questionnaire of one type of another.

Ringo:
Intelligence is the measure of one's ability to operate within the system.

If God is "Truth", then God is irrelevant.

Measuring Intelligence is called IQ, which is established ONLY by measuring whether the responses sre true, not contingent upon any system at all.

The correspondence between Reality and what one says is true must not be false to count towards the measure of Intelligence.
Intelligence is Truth, expressed or demonstrated in the thinking of someone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by ringo, posted 03-02-2013 12:16 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 03-05-2013 11:13 AM kofh2u has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 12826
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 90 of 150 (692583)
03-05-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by kofh2u
03-03-2013 1:21 PM


Re: Intelligence IS Truth
kofh2u writes:

Measuring Intelligence is called IQ, which is established ONLY by measuring whether the responses sre true, not contingent upon any system at all.


You have that backwards. "True" is only true within a given system. That's why black people tend to score poorly on "white" IQ tests - because what's "true" in the white culture is not necessarily true in theirs.

kofh2 writes:

Intelligence is Truth, expressed or demonstrated in the thinking of someone.


Intelligence can be demonstrated in a situation where there are no other people - e.g. if you're marooned on an island. In that case, you survive or not depending on how "real" your perception of the "truth" is.

However, in a social situation, truth has a lot to do with consensus. The consensus will say that when the light is red you should stop, even if you perceive the "truth' as full speed ahead.

Real situations often require group truth rather than individual truth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by kofh2u, posted 03-03-2013 1:21 PM kofh2u has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by kofh2u, posted 03-05-2013 11:31 AM ringo has responded

  
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