Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 301 of 385 (696859)
04-19-2013 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Faith
04-19-2013 9:03 AM


Re: Does Rome Aim at World Domination?
Looks more like getting the existing religions to be friendlier to each other. Anything more is just wild speculation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Faith, posted 04-19-2013 9:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 385 (696875)
04-19-2013 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2013 3:34 AM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
So, what are the essentials of Christian belief? Do they look anything like the Apostle's Creed?
Faith has given you her answer.
Regarding the Apostle's Creed, I am not convinced that all of it is essential. Let's recall that there were several centuries of Christians before the Creed just as there were centuries of Christians before there was an inerrant or a any other kind of Bible. That does not make the post ressurection scriptures of no importance. The described experiences of actually operating a church and of a converted man trying to follow Christ's teachings are extremely valuable.
Neither am I convinced that the Apostle's Creed alone is sufficient. In fact, I am convinced otherwise. The Apostle's Creed is an important affirmation of belief and nothing more.
My position is that the more modern is the added doctrine the more skeptical Christians should be that the doctrine is essential or even Bible based. Yes the Catholic Church did add a bunch of stuff of I find dubious and the Reformers did peel some of that away. But the reformers also added more dubious stuff themselves.
One definition of 'essential' is what beliefs and actions must you lack for Jesus to respond 'I never knew you' in response to your cries of Lord, Lord. There is no doubt in my mind that Faith's list both overstates and leaves off elements of these essentials. The Apostle's Creed is not complete in that regard, but it is harder to make the case that it overstates in a significant way.
As far as the Trinity is concerned, my belief is that you have only to do what Matthew 28:18-20 instructs Christians to do.
quote:
Jesus drew near and said to them, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples: baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you. And I will be with you always, to the end of the age."
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2013 3:34 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 303 of 385 (696884)
04-19-2013 12:22 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
04-18-2013 1:13 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
Faith writes:
You have at EvC some true Christians but a lot of people who call themselves Christians whose actual beliefs don't fit the description.
You're confusing "the" description with your description. The only useful description of a Christian is "somebody who calls himself a Christian" - just like the only useful description of George is "somebody who calls himself George".
Faith writes:
But there are objective criteria that I've been trying to spell out that would inform you if you were willing to learn it.
Your position is the exact opposite of objective. Objectivity implies consensus. You're usuing a thoroughly subjective interpretation of the Bible in an attempt to exclude most people from the poll. You're trying to win the election by only allowing people who agree with you to vote.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Faith, posted 04-18-2013 1:13 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 1:51 PM ringo has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 304 of 385 (696885)
04-19-2013 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
04-19-2013 9:05 AM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
I'm going to re-post something I had in another thread which you chose not to reply to. It is an obvious example, (although I have a hunch you won't see it that way) of a contradiction in the Scriptures
I have been working my way through the OT and came across this story of how Jehu slaughtered all of the descendants and followers of Ahab using deceit and treachery.
Here is the account from 2 Kings 10.
quote:
1 Now Ahab had seventy sons in Samaria. And Jehu wrote letters and sent them to Samaria, to the rulers of Jezreel, the elders, and to the guardians of the children of Ahab, saying,
2"Now, when this letter comes to you, since your master's sons are with you, as well as the chariots and horses and a fortified city and the weapons,
3select the best and fittest of your master's sons, and set him on his father's throne, and fight for your master's house."
4 But they feared greatly and said, "Behold, the two kings did not stand before him; how then can we stand ?"
5 And the one who was over the household, and he who was over the city, the elders, and the guardians of the children, sent word to Jehu, saying, "We are your servants, all that you say to us we will do, we will not make any man king ; do what is good in your sight."
6 Then he wrote a letter to them a second time saying, "If you are on my side, and you will listen to my voice, take the heads of the men, your master's sons, and come to me at Jezreel tomorrow about this time." Now the king's sons, seventy persons, were with the great men of the city, who were rearing them.
7 When the letter came to them, they took the king's sons and slaughtered them, seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent them to him at Jezreel.
8 When the messenger came and told him, saying, "They have brought the heads of the king's sons," he said, "Put them in two heaps at the entrance of the gate until morning."
9 Now in the morning he went out and stood and said to all the people, "You are innocent ; behold, I conspired against my master and killed him, but who killed all these ?
10"Know then that there shall fall to the earth nothing of the word of the LORD, which the LORD spoke concerning the house of Ahab, for the LORD has done what He spoke through His servant Elijah."
11 So Jehu killed all who remained of the house of Ahab in Jezreel, and all his great men and his acquaintances and his priests, until he left him without a survivor.
12 Then he arose and departed and went to Samaria. On the way while he was at Beth-eked of the shepherds,
13Jehu met the relatives of Ahaziah king of Judah and said, "Who are you?" And they answered, "We are the relatives of Ahaziah ; and we have come down to greet the sons of the king and the sons of the queen mother."
14 He said, "Take them alive." So they took them alive and killed them at the pit of Beth-eked, forty-two men ; and he left none of them.
15 Now when he had departed from there, he met Jehonadab the son of Rechab coming to meet him; and he greeted him and said to him, "Is your heart right, as my heart is with your heart ?" And Jehonadab answered, "It is." Jehu said, "If it is, give me your hand." And he gave him his hand, and he took him up to him into the chariot.
16 He said, "Come with me and see my zeal for the LORD." So he made him ride in his chariot.
17 When he came to Samaria, he killed all who remained to Ahab in Samaria, until he had destroyed him, according to the word of the LORD which He spoke to Elijah.
Jehu Destroys Baal Worshipers
18 Then Jehu gathered all the people and said to them, "Ahab served Baal a little ; Jehu will serve him much.
19"Now, summon all the prophets of Baal, all his worshipers and all his priests ; let no one be missing, for I have a great sacrifice for Baal ; whoever is missing shall not live." But Jehu did it in cunning, so that he might destroy the worshipers of Baal.
20 And Jehu said, "Sanctify a solemn assembly for Baal." And they proclaimed it.
21 Then Jehu sent throughout Israel and all the worshipers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left who did not come. And when they went into the house of Baal, the house of Baal was filled from one end to the other.
22 He said to the one who was in charge of the wardrobe, "Bring out garments for all the worshipers of Baal." So he brought out garments for them.
23Jehu went into the house of Baal with Jehonadab the son of Rechab ; and he said to the worshipers of Baal, "Search and see that there is here with you none of the servants of the LORD, but only the worshipers of Baal."
24 Then they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had stationed for himself eighty men outside, and he had said, "The one who permits any of the men whom I bring into your hands to escape shall give up his life in exchange."
25 Then it came about, as soon as he had finished offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the royal officers, "Go in, kill them; let none come out." And they killed them with the edge of the sword ; and the guard and the royal officers threw them out, and went to the inner room of the house of Baal.
26 They brought out the sacred pillars of the house of Baal and burned them.
27 They also broke down the sacred pillar of Baal and broke down the house of Baal, and made it a latrine to this day.
28 Thus Jehu eradicated Baal out of Israel.
29However, as for the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, which he made Israel sin, from these Jehu did not depart, even the golden calves that were at Bethel and that were at Dan.
When we get to the end we can see that Jehu destroyed all of the places of worship of Baal so if you like it can be argued that Yahweh felt it necessary. Indeed it goes on to say that:
quote:
30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in executing what is right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."
So ostensibly here we have a case of Yahweh applauding a brutal treacherous slaughter as presumably the means must have justified the ends. Not exactly bed time reading for the little ones — is it?
However when we read the book of Hosea chapter 1 we read the following.
quote:
4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."
Yahweh was pleased with Jehu for what he did in 2nd Kings, he is now going to punish him for it in Hosea. This does strike me as more than a little odd and definitely un-God-like.
It is clear that the scribe who wrote 2nd Kings had one political viewpoint and the writer of Hosea had another.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 04-19-2013 9:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 04-19-2013 11:35 PM GDR has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 305 of 385 (696904)
04-19-2013 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by ringo
04-19-2013 12:22 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
Your position is the exact opposite of objective. Objectivity implies consensus.
Objective does not imply correctness or a consensus about correctness, merely a consensus about what the standard predicts. Objective implies that everyone applying the standard would reach similar results. I think Faith's criteria do meet that definition.
....in an attempt to exclude most people from the poll.
You're trying to win the election by only allowing people who agree with you to vote.
She's excluded many Christians from the polls. Yes. I agree with this. Only true Scotsmen even get ballots.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by ringo, posted 04-19-2013 12:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 04-19-2013 1:53 PM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 306 of 385 (696905)
04-19-2013 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 1:51 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
NoNukes writes:
Objective implies that everyone applying the standard would reach similar results.
Do Muslims and Buddhists agree with Faith's standard?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 1:51 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 3:41 PM ringo has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 307 of 385 (696912)
04-19-2013 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by Faith
04-19-2013 9:05 AM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
I believe I already said: Sola Scriptura, and salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. Plus the Deity of Christ/Trinity and various other elements of various of the Creeds. I believe these things are shared by the churches I listed.
Right. So first you decide what the essentials of Christianity are, then you decide that people who don't agree with that aren't really Christians, and then you proudly announce that a majority of Christians agree with you about essential things.
To you, maybe "sola scriptura" is an essential of Christianity. But to many people, such as Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Congregationalists, the essentials of Christianity would look like this:
I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by Faith, posted 04-19-2013 9:05 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 310 by Faith, posted 04-19-2013 11:37 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 308 of 385 (696937)
04-19-2013 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by ringo
04-19-2013 1:53 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
Objective implies that everyone applying the standard would reach similar results.
Do Muslims and Buddhists agree with Faith's standard?
Do YEC's agree with the scientific standards for carbon dating? Is that question even relevant to whether those standards are objective?
It is not necessary that standard be accepted or correct for the standard to be objective. If a Muslim and a ringo applied Faith's standard, then given enough facts they would largely agree on who met the standard and who did not. That's the only consensus that objectivity requires.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by ringo, posted 04-19-2013 1:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by ringo, posted 04-20-2013 11:56 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 309 of 385 (696975)
04-19-2013 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by GDR
04-19-2013 12:37 PM


Jehu
It is clear that the scribe who wrote 2nd Kings had one political viewpoint and the writer of Hosea had another.
Those who deny the inerrancy of the Bible of course won't persevere in trying to reconcile what seems to them to be an apparent contradiction, but that's what we have to do if we are going to understand the mind of God.
Jehu did obey God in punishing the house of Ahab and the priests of Baal, but in his own life he also committed idolatry, showing that his obedience to God wasn't from right motives, and eventually his house came under God's judgment for that as well.
God did reward him for his work as executioner: his sons reigned in Israel for 120 years, but then his own sins, which were also committed by his sons, came up for judgment.
From Matthew Henry's Commentary on Hosea 1:4:
(2.) What is the ground of this controversy: I will revenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, the blood which Jehu shed at Jezreel, when by commission from God and in obedience to his command, he utterly destroyed the house of Ahab, and all that were in alliance with it, with all the worshippers of Baal. God approved of what he did (2 Ki. 10:30): Thou has done well in executing that which is right in my eyes; and yet here God will avenge that blood upon the house of Jehu, when the time has expired during which it was promised that his family should reign, even to the fourth generation. But how comes the same action to be both rewarded and punished? Very justly; the matter of it was good; it was the execution of a righteous sentence passed upon the house of Ahab, and, as such, it was rewarded; but Jehu did it not in a right manner; he aimed at his own advancement, not at the glory of God, and mingled his own resentments with the execution of God’s justice. He did it with a malice against the sinners, but not with any antipathy to the sin; for he kept up the worship of the golden calves, and took no heed to walk in the law of God, 2 Ki. 10:31. And therefore when the measure of the iniquity of his house was full, and God came to reckon with them, the first article in the account is (and, being first, it is put for all the rest) for the blood of the house of Ahab, here called the blood of Jezreel. Thus when the house of Baasha was rooted out it was because he did like the house of Jeroboam, and because he killed him, 1 Ki. 16:7. Note, Those that are entrusted with the administration of justice are concerned to see to it that they do it from a right principle and with a right intention, and that they do not themselves live in those sins which they punish in others, lest even their just executions should be reckoned for, another day, as little less than murders.
And from Henry's Commentary on 2Kings 10:30:
1. God pronounced that to be right which he had done. It is justly questionable whether he did it from a good principle and whether he did not take some false steps in the doing of it; and yet (says God), Thou hast done well in executing that which is right in my eyes. The extirpating of idolaters and idolatry was a thing right in God’s eyes, for it is an iniquity he visits as surely and severely as any: it was according to all that was in his heart, all he desired, all he designed. Jehu went through with his work. 2. God promised him a reward, that his children of the fourth generation from him should sit upon the throne of Israel. This was more than what took place in any of the dignities or royal families of that kingdom; of the house of Ahab there were indeed four kings, Omri, Ahab, Ahaziah, and Joram, but the last two were brothers, so that it reached but to the third generation, and that whole family continued but about forty-five years in all, whereas Jehu’s continued in four, besides himself, and in all about 120 years. Note, No services done for God shall go unrewarded.
II. Jehu’s carelessness in what he was further to do. By this it appeared that his heart was not right with God, that he was partial in his reformation. 1. He did not put away all the evil. He departed from the sins of Ahab, but not from the sins of Jeroboamdiscarded Baal, but adhered to the calves. The worship of Baal was indeed the greater evil, and more heinous in the sight of God, but the worship of the calves was a great evil, and true conversion is not only from gross sin, but from all sinnot only from false gods, but from false worships. The worship of Baal weakened and diminished Israel, and made them beholden to the Sidonians, and therefore he could easily part with that; but the worship of the calves was a politic idolatry, was begun and kept up for reasons of state, to prevent the return of the ten tribes to the house of David, and therefore Jehu clave to that. True conversion is not only from wasteful sins, but from gainful sinsnot only from those sins that are destructive to the secular interest, but from those that support and befriend it, in forsaking which is the great trial whether we can deny ourselves and trust God. 2. He put away evil, but he did not mind that which was good (v. 31): He took no heed to walk in the law of the Lord God of Israel. He abolished the worship of Baal, but did not keep up the worship of God, nor walk in his law. He had shown great care and zeal for the rooting out of a false religion; but in the true religion, (1.) He showed no care, took no heed, lived at large, was not at all solicitous to please God and to do his duty, took no heed to the scriptures, to the prophets, to his own conscience, but walked at all adventures...
As Purpledawn has noted, this is OFF TOPIC . I won't respond to answers in this thread.
=============================================================================================
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by GDR, posted 04-19-2013 12:37 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by GDR, posted 04-20-2013 12:30 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 310 of 385 (696976)
04-19-2013 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by Dr Adequate
04-19-2013 2:10 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
To you, maybe "sola scriptura" is an essential of Christianity. But to many people, such as Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists, and Congregationalists, the essentials of Christianity would look like this:
Ask any of them except the Catholics and the liberal versions of the other churches, and they will answer that I am right about Sola Scriptura and the other Solas.
ABE: I chose the particular branches of some of the churches and not others because some have gone liberal. Presbyterian USA has gone liberal while Covenant Presbyterian and Presbyterian in America have remained orthodox; Evangelical Lutheran Church in America is their liberal branch while Lutheran Missouri Synod has remained orthodox. I may have lost track of some of the changes in the denominations, the Great Apostasy is taking over at a gallop these days, but I'm sure those that have remained orthodox follow all the Solas, whichever those are that are still orthodox.
As Purpledawn has noted, this is OFF TOPIC . I won't respond to answers in this thread.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-19-2013 2:10 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 311 of 385 (696981)
04-20-2013 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Faith
04-19-2013 11:35 PM


Re: Jehu
Faith writes:
Those who deny the inerrancy of the Bible of course won't persevere in trying to reconcile what seems to them to be an apparent contradiction, but that's what we have to do if we are going to understand the mind of God.
Jehu did obey God in punishing the house of Ahab and the priests of Baal, but in his own life he also committed idolatry, showing that his obedience to God wasn't from right motives, and eventually his house came under God's judgment for that as well.
But you are reconciling the passages but adding something that the text doesn't say or imply and even explicitly contradicts, in order to twist its meaning in order to comply with your pre-determined point of view
This again is from 2 Kings:
quote:
30 The LORD said to Jehu, "Because you have done well in executing what is right in My eyes, and have done to the house of Ahab according to all that was in My heart, your sons of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel."
The passage claims that God is saying that what he had done was right in his eyes.
Hosea then says:
quote:
4 And the LORD said to him, "Name him Jezreel ; for yet a little while, and I will punish the house of Jehu for the bloodshed of Jezreel, and I will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. 5 "On that day I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel."
Hosea isn’t saying that the house of Jehu is being punished because of Jehu’s idolatry, he is saying it is because of the bloodshed of Jezreel. It is very specific and is in direct contradiction with the statement in 2 Kings. (Of course this isn’t even to mention that it is in complete contradiction to what Jesus taught.) Hosea even goes further in saying that because what Jehu had done in Jezreel that God will put an end to the kingdom of the house of Israel. It is patently obvious that these 2 different writers have 2 different points of view.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Faith, posted 04-19-2013 11:35 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 04-20-2013 5:17 AM GDR has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 312 of 385 (696998)
04-20-2013 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by GDR
04-20-2013 12:30 AM


Re: Jehu
The bloodshed becomes a sin when it is done with bad motives, and the motives are demonstrated by Jehu's being an idolater himself just as Ahab and clan were. And Jehu's idolatry IS shown in the history of the reign of his sons, it's not added to the text.
Being judged by God by a human instrument of God is also shown in other parts of scripture, such as when Assyria was God's instrument for the judgment of Israel. God says somewhere in Isaiah I think that He will judge Assyria in their own time because they delighted in destroying Israel. This demonstrates that motive matters. But of course Assyria wasn't commanded by God to judge Israel, as Jehu was, but the principle can be applied to Jehu as well once it is demonstrated that he too acted with wrong motives in being an idolater himself -- that is, not really objecting to the sins of Ahab but being willing to slaughter his family anyway, and there is a hint that he wanted the reward of getting his sons on the throne of Israel. His sons who then also committed idolatries and other sins.
As Purpledawn has noted, this is OFF TOPIC . I won't respond to answers in this thread.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by GDR, posted 04-20-2013 12:30 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-20-2013 10:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 313 of 385 (697007)
04-20-2013 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Faith
04-20-2013 5:17 AM


Re: Jehu
The bloodshed becomes a sin when it is done with bad motives ...
But if it was sinful, why did God tell Jehu that he'd "done well"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Faith, posted 04-20-2013 5:17 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 314 of 385 (697011)
04-20-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by NoNukes
04-19-2013 3:41 PM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
NoNukes writes:
Do YEC's agree with the scientific standards for carbon dating? Is that question even relevant to whether those standards are objective?
It's relevant if the standard itself isn't objective.
NoNukes writes:
If a Muslim and a ringo applied Faith's standard, then given enough facts they would largely agree on who met the standard and who did not.
My whole point is that Faith's standard isn't objective. If everybody applies the same rules they will get the same answer but if the rules are wrong the answer will still be wrong.
In matters of belief, it isn't possible to have an objective standard. There's no way of testing what somebody believes. The only evidence we have is their profession of belief.
Hence, the only way to tell if somebody is a "true Christian" is if he says he is. The only "required" belief in Christianity is the belief that you're a Christian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by NoNukes, posted 04-19-2013 3:41 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Stile, posted 04-20-2013 1:14 PM ringo has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 315 of 385 (697024)
04-20-2013 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by ringo
04-20-2013 11:56 AM


Re: The Fallacy of the "No True Scotsman" Fallacy
ringo writes:
My whole point is that Faith's standard isn't objective.
I think NoNukes's point is that Faith's standard taken as is, from Faith, is an objective standard in the sense that anyone can apply Faith's standard to achieve the same results that Faith is getting.
In which, I think he is correct.
I think that what you're saying is that Faith's standard is not an objective answer to the question "What is Christianity?"
In which, I think you are correct as well.
Two different contexts in applying the word "objective."
Both seem to be correct usage to me, if their specific context is understood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by ringo, posted 04-20-2013 11:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by ringo, posted 04-20-2013 1:40 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024