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Author Topic:   Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Huntard
Member
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(3)
Message 16 of 77 (695752)
04-09-2013 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Alter2Ego
04-09-2013 3:48 AM


Alter2Ego writes:

While we're on the topic of "ignorance so proudly on display," below, for the benefit of the forum, is info on the role of gravity on the planets.

quote:
As most people know, there are nine planets in our solar system. They are Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto.

Nope, sorry, Pluto's not a planet.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-09-2013 3:48 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-09-2013 11:01 AM Huntard has acknowledged this reply
 Message 28 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 3:09 AM Huntard has responded

    
fizz57102
Junior Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 17
Joined: 05-24-2010


Message 17 of 77 (695758)
04-09-2013 7:28 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Alter2Ego
04-09-2013 3:48 AM


@alter2ego

I'm with subbie on the topic of "ignorance on display" here - and not only by alter2ego!

I don't think much of that Thinkquest quote, can't you find a more authoritative source than one "by students for students" to learn from? The statement "Since the Sun is so massive, the planets can't move the Sun with their gravity and are forced to move around the Sun" is nonsense. While I can see what they're trying to say, any of my first-years putting that sort of rubbish down on paper would be asked to seriously reconsider his future as a scientist.

Tell me, a2e, according to your understanding, if the Earth's "gravity" (presumably the magnitude of its gravitational field at the surface) was different from its current value, do you think that its orbit around the sun would be significantly different?

Oh, and while you're at it, let's have your thoughts on how an attractive force can stop things from bashing into each other....

Edited by fizz57102, : rewritten concluding statement


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-09-2013 3:48 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 1577
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 18 of 77 (695759)
04-09-2013 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by fizz57102
04-09-2013 7:28 AM


He he he

Did you read what the ThinkQuest 'Team' consists of?

quote:
Team

LOMAX
Cicely Tyson School of Performing and Fine Arts, EAST ORANGE, NJ, United States

Ruel
Cicely Tyson School of Performing and Fine Arts, East Orange, NJ, United States

Age Range

19 & under

Coaches

Adrianne Surgeon
Cicely Tyson School of Performing and Fine Arts, Orange, NJ, United States

Category

History & Government > Disasters


Get it at http://www.thinkquest.org/pls/html/think.site?p_site_id=C...

I guess that really does explain the 'knowledge' alter2ego thinks he has on the subject of 'why planets don't bump into each other'. He was serious when he provided that link!

Tragic.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by fizz57102, posted 04-09-2013 7:28 AM fizz57102 has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11252
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 19 of 77 (695791)
04-09-2013 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Huntard
04-09-2013 6:28 AM


Nope, sorry, Pluto's not a planet.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Huntard, posted 04-09-2013 6:28 AM Huntard has acknowledged this reply

  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9458
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 20 of 77 (695832)
04-09-2013 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Alter2Ego
04-09-2013 3:48 AM


Notice above that each of the planets in our solar system have varying fields of gravity. It is that variation in gravitational pull, combined with the mass and size of each planet, that keeps each planet within its individual elliptical orbit. Keep your eyes on the words bolded in sea green in the remainder of the quotation below.

It is probably impossible to provide an argument that will convince you of your error. But let's try these.

Do you understand that any object having of any mass having the same distance from the sun and velocity as Mars has at a point in Mars' orbit will travel in the essentially the same orbit. It is the sun's gravity that determines a planets orbit. A planet's weaker gravity in turn moves the sun a tiny bit. That tiny bit certainly does not explain why Jupiter is five times further away from the sun than Earth, while Mars is about 1.5 times further from the sun despite being less massive than earth/

Did you notice when posting your data that Venus and Uranus had similar surface gravity (totally irrelevant), but yet Venus orbit is about 25 times smaller than that of Uranus?

id you notice that the last part of the quotation from the source said "Gravity is what keeps each planet on track and not flying all over the place"?

Yes, where 'not flying all over the place' would mean leaving the solar system on a straight line path.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-09-2013 3:48 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 1:50 AM NoNukes has responded

    
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 21 of 77 (695882)
04-10-2013 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by NoNukes
04-08-2013 11:35 AM


quote:
NO NUKES:
It turns out that the behavior of atoms can be predicted from knowing a few masses and charges and some mathematics. All atoms are made up of the same basic particles (neutrons, protons, and electrons) and while some of these particles are themselves divisible, we don't need knowledge of those detals to be able to accurately predict the chemical properties of the atoms. The math accurately predicts the order and similarity of the properties of the elements.

ALTER2EGO -to- NO NUKES:
You are proving my point: that the elements on the Periodic Table are precise. They are so precise that their behavior is predictable.

QUESTION #1 to NO NUKES: Where did the atoms, neutrons, protons, and electrons, come from, considering how predictable they are?

QUESTION #2 to NO NUKES: Is it your position that the predictable atoms are the result of spontaneous events or accidents?

QUESTION #3 to NO NUKES: Are you telling this forum that none of the elements on the Periodic Table are evidence of intelligent design?

I will watch for your response to my questions.


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 04-08-2013 11:35 AM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 04-10-2013 11:49 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15804
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 22 of 77 (695885)
04-10-2013 3:04 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Alter2Ego
04-09-2013 3:48 AM


Notice above that each of the planets in our solar system have varying fields of gravity. It is that variation in gravitational pull, combined with the mass and size of each planet, that keeps each planet within its individual elliptical orbit.

No it isn't. If you don't know any physics, then this forum is a bad place to try making it up and bluffing, as many people round here are quite knowledgeable in this field.

---

Let's explain what does actually happen. I'll use Newtonian dynamics, since that's quite sufficient.

The attractive force between two bodies of masses m1 and m2 is given by F = Gm1m2/r2, where r is the distance between them and G is a constant.

Now, according to Newton's second law, F = ma, or, rearranging, a = F/m: the acceleration of a body is the force acting on it divided by its mass.

So putting these two formulas together, the acceleration of the body with mass m1 will be given by a = Gm1m2/r2m1. The m1s on the top and the bottom of the right-hand side of this equation cancel, giving us:

a = Gm2/r2

So the mass m1 is irrelevant to the motion of the body with mass m1.

This is, or course, why Galileo was right: if the force of air friction is negligible, a light and a heavy body dropped at the same time from the same place will undergo the same acceleration.

It also means that the motion of a body in orbit will be determined by its position, its velocity, and the mass of the body it's orbiting. Its own mass doesn't come into it.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-09-2013 3:48 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 6098
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 4.2


(2)
Message 23 of 77 (695912)
04-10-2013 11:10 AM


Texas Sharpshooter
It would appear that our new poster in this thread believes that painting the bull's eye around the arrow indicates accuracy.
  
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9458
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
Message 24 of 77 (695915)
04-10-2013 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Alter2Ego
04-10-2013 1:49 AM


You are proving my point: that the elements on the Periodic Table are precise

No I am not. In fact the idea that elements are precise has absolutely no meaning.

What is the case is that when the elements are placed in order by their atomic number, which is simply a count of the number of protons in each atom, we can discern some gross patterns in chemical behavior. However these patterns, and some less evident ones are infinitely predictable by knowing a relativity small set of information about protons, electrons.

Where in that does anything regarding some divine precision enter?

Is it your position that the predictable atoms are the result of spontaneous events or accidents?

Your question is inane and make no sense. You are misusing the terms accident and precise in ways that do not promote communication.

Are you telling this forum that none of the elements on the Periodic Table are evidence of intelligent design?

I'm telling you that. The periodic table demonstrates order, but the source of that order is well known. The order results from a rather small number of properties of protons, neutrons, and electrons. (mass, charge, spin, etc.).

Your conclusion is that Order = Design.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I would say here something that was heard from an ecclesiastic of the most eminent degree; ‘That the intention of the Holy Ghost is to teach us how one goes to heaven, not how the heaven goes.’ Galileo Galilei 1615.

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-10-2013 1:49 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

    
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 25 of 77 (696006)
04-11-2013 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by NoNukes
04-09-2013 2:44 PM


Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
quote:
NO NUKES:
Do you understand that any object having of any mass having the same distance from the sun and velocity as Mars has at a point in Mars' orbit will travel in the essentially the same orbit. It is the sun's gravity that determines a planets orbit. A planet's weaker gravity in turn moves the sun a tiny bit. That tiny bit certainly does not explain why Jupiter is five times further away from the sun than Earth, while Mars is about 1.5 times further from the sun despite being less massive than earth/

ALTER2EGO -to- NO NUKES:
Do you understand that you and I are talking about two different things?

1. I was rebutting subbie who claimed at Post #4 that the individual field of gravity of each planet does not play a role in keeping planets within their orbit and away from each other.

2. You are talking only about how the sun's gravity affects the other planets in our solar system and causes them to revolve around it.

You ignore the fact that each planet has its own field of gravity, which prevents each of them from being removed from their orbital path around the sun. If the sun's gravity was the only deciding factor, the sun would have long since pulled the other planets into itself because the sun has a stronger gravitational field and gravity causes planets to pull inwards. This is confirmed by the following source:

quote:
Orbital Speed
The mass formula above tells you that satellites orbiting massive planets must move faster than satellites orbiting low-mass planets at the same distance. Massive planets have stronger gravity than low-mass planets so a satellite orbiting a massive planet is accelerated by a greater amount than one going around a lesser mass planet at the same distance. To balance the stronger inward gravitational pull of the massive planet, the satellite must move faster in its orbit than if it was orbiting a lesser mass planet. Of course, this also applies to planets orbiting stars, stars orbiting other stars, etc.

http://www.astronomynotes.com/gravappl/s8.htm

Click the weblink below, and you will notice that each planet is on a different orbital path around the sun.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Solar_sys8.jpg

BTW: I notice you evaded all three of the questions I asked you. I need not wonder why.


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 27 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-11-2013 2:34 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 2730
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 26 of 77 (696007)
04-11-2013 2:17 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 1:50 AM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
How funny!

Yes, the formula for universal gravitation includes the mass of both bodies, but when one body is so much more massive than the other, the effects of its mass are negligible.

And you might want to try to understand what that quote you gave says. Note that nowhere does it say that the mass of the satellites themselves come into play.

Do the math! Show us this great difference you think that the planet's mass makes. Be very specific.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 1:50 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15804
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 27 of 77 (696008)
04-11-2013 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 1:50 AM


Re: Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?
Try reading post #22. It has math and everything.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 1:50 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

  
Alter2Ego
Member (Idle past 1205 days)
Posts: 72
From: Los Angeles, California
Joined: 04-06-2013


Message 28 of 77 (696011)
04-11-2013 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Huntard
04-09-2013 6:28 AM


quote:
HUNTARD:
Nope, sorry, Pluto's not a planet.

ALTER2EGO -to- HUNTARD:
Pluto is very much a planet. It was reclassified as a "dwarf planet", but it is a planet just the same.

quote:
What Is Pluto?

Today, Pluto is called a "dwarf planet." A dwarf planet orbits the sun just like other planets, but it is smaller. A dwarf planet is so small it cannot clear other objects out of its path.



http://www.nasa.gov/...nts/k-4/stories/what-is-pluto-k4.html

QUESTION #1 to HUNTARD: What does the expression "just like other planets" indicate about dwarf planets such as Pluto?


"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Huntard, posted 04-09-2013 6:28 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Pressie, posted 04-11-2013 4:11 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded
 Message 30 by Huntard, posted 04-11-2013 6:14 AM Alter2Ego has responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1577
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 29 of 77 (696016)
04-11-2013 4:11 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 3:09 AM


Eris the tenth planet
So, according to your 'logic', we've got at least ten planets then. Eris being one of those.

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~mbrown/planetlila/


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 3:09 AM Alter2Ego has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Huntard
Member
Posts: 2854
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 30 of 77 (696020)
04-11-2013 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Alter2Ego
04-11-2013 3:09 AM


Alter2Ego writes:

ALTER2EGO -to- HUNTARD:
Pluto is very much a planet. It was reclassified as a "dwarf planet", but it is a planet just the same.


If it was still a planet, it would be called a planet. Words have meanings, you know.

quote:
What Is Pluto?
Today, Pluto is called a "dwarf planet." A dwarf planet orbits the sun just like other planets, but it is smaller. A dwarf planet is so small it cannot clear other objects out of its path.

http://www.nasa.gov/...nts/k-4/stories/what-is-pluto-k4.html
QUESTION #1 to HUNTARD: What does the expression "just like other planets" indicate about dwarf planets such as Pluto?


That they exhibit some similar characteristics as planets. This apparently has confused you into thinking they are completely similar. Which they aren't as your quote clearly states.

Besides, if you want to include dwarfplanets as normal planets, your original quote would still be wrong, as it says there are nine planets, but if we count the dwarfplanets as planets as well, there would be 13. So take your pick, either way, the quote is wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 3:09 AM Alter2Ego has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Alter2Ego, posted 04-11-2013 10:29 AM Huntard has responded

    
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